Hi Steve,
Do you have a training partner or someone who is equally skilled that would be able to take the lessons when your not available?
Another option would be to just do private lessons and offer free group sessions once a fortnight or something?
Just an idea.
stubbs,
No, not anyone else - other than my sifu, who surpasses me in many ways.... i do have one Sihing, however i've been told by my sifu that he is only above myself in terms of when he started.. :(
hence, why i am trying to train my core group. that way, they might be experienced and competent enough to teach the basics (which in our system is the key to our kung fu, much more than forms - although they are important).
Steve
Now we got it going on!
Teaching:
Start out small. Privates make the money, Groups use less time.
Space:
find one you can afford but location, location, location. Windows yes.
Don’t clutter up your space. If its a club then using the bathroom as a changing room is okay. If you must have changing rooms then try the curtain idea. When class starts you can pull them to the side.
A wall unit with cubby holes is a must along with a coat rack. I’m lucky as most students arrive in their uniform already.
A small desk or wall unit is all you need for storage. Keep the bulk of your stuff at home. Its much safer anyway. I’ve lost alot over the years.
Keep the space clean. Mirrors are great, especially to make the space appear larger.
material/lessons:
Definetly use the Rotating Curriculum idea. It saves not only time but the need for assistant instructors, especially when you are just starting out.
Equipment:
If possible sell everything through your club. Have your equipment with your logo on it and make it the allowed/requirement. But to get good prices you’ll need a business license and a tax id to get wholesale. Keep it simple. Sweats and a T-shirt. Silkscreen them yourself.
lots more ideas (hope to apply them all one day 
School Owners
Most school owners to have membership agreements (contracts) right? I would like to see who does and who doesn’t.
Thanks Eric,
good ideas and input.
how about anyone else.
Steve
I have contracts, but I need to take a hard line when it comes to cancellations, or freezing memberships. I know that freezing a membership is bad-you don’t tell your bank that you are going on vacation, so you would like to freeze your mortgage payments, or your car payments. And I know I should not cancel memberships-they should stick to their commitment as well. But…I also don’t want someone who doesn’t want to be here, staying because they are locked into a contract, then griping i n the locker room, or in the lobby to the next prospective student that is there. Disention spreads like a cancer.
Of course, if there is a disatisfied student, I try to fix it, do damage control, underpromise, overdeliver, etc, but if I don’t know the promise exists, I can’t attempt a fix. It’s one thing if a student is starting to lose iinterest, I can charge them up, work one on one with them, get them psyched up again, possibly get them over a hump in their training, but if they don’t tell me, and disappear, then when I call them up, they are hemming and hawing…etc not an easy thing. And then there is that fine line between “servicing your clientele” and begging your students.
Contracts VS. No Contracts
This is a constant debate between MA schools of all backgrounds. Here is my take on it;
Contacts are required to be a successful business.
The reason a student joins a school, should not be because they can ‘pay’ differently then other schools. We are not a cellphone company. Each martial arts school should offer something different or have a different level of service than a competitor. Cellphone companies are all a like, apples and apples.
I get sick everytime I see the words “No Contracts” on a sign on a martial arts school. If all schools were exactly the same, same style, same instruction, then I could understand the marketing agle. But it’s uniformed and unprofessional people that thing they will get a big school and have a big edge because they offer ‘no contracts’. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Contracts are promises. We deal with them in every part of our life. They are not negatives, they are positives. Cars, Mortgages, Rentals…everything has a contract. A contract is for the benefit of BOTH parties, not just one.
MA schools need contracts (agreements) for ‘ease of operations’ and for security of business. If you are a martial arts school, you cannot succeed by getting ‘juggled’ from your students regarding payment. Contacts guarantee a student that they will receive a specific service and that the school owner will get paid for that service. Case closed.
It’s up to the school owner how they wish to enforce contracts. My schools are certainly not big on taking a student to court if they don’t pay. Your relationship to your students however, should be clearly outlined from the day you begin training with them. This way, there is not confusion.
For the most part, schools that don’t use contracts are not helping their students to succeed. WHAT DID HE JUST SAY? That’s right, if you don’t use contacts, you are allowing your students to quit when they want and not to stay committed. Case closed.
Now, for all you people who are confused right now, let me say this. If you have or do not have contracts, it does not change the fact that you offer a specific service. Now if your service is substandard (it sucks); I don’t care whether you have contacts or not, you need to make it better.
Contacts are not an ethical issue.
To be successful at the martial arts business, you need them.
They have nothing to do with what you teach or how well you teach it.
You cannot offer a professional service if you have to chase your students down for $$$
By the way, if you are trying to collect money, with our without contracts, by yourself…then you need to WAKE UP! Yes…I know. Some school is going to post and yell at me and say that they do it by themselves. Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yes, you can do it by yourself, but WHY BOTHER!?! There are professional companies that do it for you and take only a little bit commission. Separate yourself from your students when it comes to finances. Be thier instructor. Let the tuition company handle problems with payments and cancellations. Just do what you do best (I hope) TEACH!
I’ll step off my little soap box now,…thank you.
I use Members Solutions for a billing company. I’ve used them for over 11 years and I think they are the best. I do not work for them. You can contact Joe Galea and let them know that I sent you. They are nice people and very professional.
I’ve trained pretty much my whole life (minus some real good times in my teens) and NEVER had a contract with my teacher.
I trained with who I trained with because I knew they were good. Everytime I walked out their door I had something I didn’t come in with – I left better than I came. That’s what kept me coming back.
It should be a two way street. What about the students? Shouldn’t they have a contract with their sifu as well?
After three years what do I get?
Will I be able to swing an aluminum sword and kwon do real well? Be able to hold horse stance for 20 minutes? Do line drills with my eyes closed? Or will I actually be able to defend myself? … and by who’s standard? That’s the big one. Because teachers blow a lot of smoke up paying customer’s a$$es.
If I study at a kwoon for 3 years but get my a$$ handed to me by a BJJ student of 8 months do I get my money back?
Did the real master’s who taught the kwoon owners demand contracts? Did they learn under contract from their master’s in China?
I don’t want to demean this thread, but honestly, we’re talking about the commercialization of a beautiful thing that money can’t buy.
On one hand it’s kind of funny: There’s schools raking in tons of cash here on Long Island alone … there are thousands of students on this island … I haven’t met a single fighter from a kwoon out here. All the fighters seem to come from garage-type formats.
On the other hand it’s kind of sad: Where’s the next generation of some of these tough masters? There’s a few schools out here – in strip malls – that tote the name and lineage of Master Chan Tai San, but I can’t find a student willing to compare with me and I’d really like to see the stuff. The schools are nice, make money hand over fist, but they aren’t producing any warriors.
Seems like a heavy price to pay … even for $25K a month.
To answer the last post: As I mentioned before, contracts are a two way street. The contract is for the benefit of both the student and the instructor.
I don’t want to demean this thread, but honestly, we’re talking about the commercialization of a beautiful thing that money can’t buy.
As far as traditional martial arts goes, of course you paid for it! Since when does a student learn from a teacher an not compensate him/her? Simple cosmic laws of reciprocation. Who wouldn’t give to someone who gave? Back in China, if you were accepted by a teacher, you might give that teacher a certain amount of your land holdings or businesses.
To anyone who learns martial arts and doesn’t pay their instructor. Shame on you. Even if he/she says don’t pay them. Contribute something to your teachers life/lifestyle.
And you did have a contract with your teacher in the old days as well. The contract was a verbal one. Sometimes, even written. That you will train and support your Sifu and he will train you and guide you. There was no real estate or insurance liability at the time, so things might have been less complex, but the concept was there.
As far as producing ‘warriors’ I think you may have more luck if you refer to another thread. This thread is relating to the Business of running a Chinese Martial Arts school. And yes, some schools do seem to make quite a bit of money in comparisson to other schools. That is kind of why we are all contributing to this thread.
I agree a martial arts instructor should be paid, and paid well … but paid for what?
The final product should be a skilled student. For all the paying customers out there, you don’t run into this skilled student too often. And by skilled, I mean someone who can apply what they have learned realisticly.
Sir, I envy the fact that you can make a VERY good living instructing. It must be a great life. At the same time I’d like to remind everyone about that little thing inside, that idealized martial artist, that drew us all into this thing in the first place. Your master was that. My master is that. I’m building myself and carrying myself everyday to become that… and I’ve been led this way by good instructors.
So yes, make a fortune. Money is a good thing and who doesn’t want more. But above your personal gain I say you have a responsibility to mold these young men and women into martial artists … that’s what they are coming to you for.
My argument is, that if you do that, you may lose many students, but you won’t need a contract because the people under your kwoons roof are real students of martial arts. And at the same time you’d have a student to shoot me a PM to take good care of me, to come shut my mouth and show me some Lama Pai kung fu.
Ray,
You assume that everyone who trains in Kung-Fu want to be like you. I am glad that you are focused on becoming the martial artist you want to become. But the majority of the population does not want to become a serious fighter. They enjoy training, they love Kung-Fu. But they are not excited about black eyes and busted lips. I used to run my classes like that years ago. People find out very quickly that they are not that good at fighting and most people don’t want to put in the hard work to get better. Some do…most won’t.
And the ‘final product’ as you put it, should be whatever the individual student wants to get from their ‘art’. Schools who help people to reach their goals, never seem to have a shortage of students.
Seek your own path. Just make sure your path doesn’t run over anyone else’s.
"Contacts are required to be a successful business. "-Lama Sifu
I agree.
“if you don’t use contacts, you are allowing your students to quit when they want and not to stay committed. Case closed.”-Lama Sifu
This comment raises a question for me:
Who are you (or any instructor) to tell someone else when they can quit or for how long they should be committed? I’m an adult. Why shouldn’t I be able to stop training when “I” decide that I want to? (after all, nobody NEEDS kung-fu. You do it for fun and you would live just fine without it).
Are martial arts instructors really qualified to go around telling people what’s good for them (hell no). Most of them are one step away from working at McDonald’s. You have doctors and lawyers (or other professionals) as students I’m sure. Don’t you think that they’re smart enough to decide on their own if and when to stop training? You have to play parent with them? With people who are older than you and who have greater success in the real world?
I don’t know how long your contracts last but to me up to a year is fine. Anything over is not good for the consumer. People’s lives change (marriage, carreer, children, moving out of state, etc.). If I can study MA now, who says that I’ll have the time 2 years from now? Or, that I’ll even like it anymore (gasp!).
As a benefit for to the buisiness contracts are great. For students, they are simply not very beneficial.
I’m talking strictly of martial arts schools. Comparing martial arts training to buying cars, houses, or whatever else is pointless. They are too different. Different reasons and different benefits.
"Contacts are required to be a successful business. "-Lama Sifu
I agree.
“if you don’t use contacts, you are allowing your students to quit when they want and not to stay committed. Case closed.”-Lama Sifu
This comment raises a question for me:
Who are you (or any instructor) to tell someone else when they can quit or for how long they should be committed? I’m an adult (so are many MA students). Why shouldn’t I be able to stop training when “I” decide that I want to? (After all, nobody NEEDS kung-fu. You do it for fun and you would live just fine without it).
Are martial arts instructors really qualified to go around telling people what’s good for them in this way? (hell no). Most of them are one step away from working at McDonald’s. You have doctors and lawyers (or other professionals) as students I’m sure. Don’t you think that they’re smart enough to decide on their own if and when to stop training? Do instructors have to play parent with them? With people who are older (than the instructor) and who have greater success in the real world?
I don’t know how long most contracts are for but to me up to a year is fine. Anything over is not good for the consumer. People’s lives change (marriage, carreer, children, moving out of state, etc.). If I can study MA now, who says that I’ll have the time 2 years from now? Or, that I’ll even like it anymore (gasp!).
As a benefit to the buisiness contracts are great. For students, they are simply not very beneficial.
I’m talking strictly of martial arts schools. Comparing martial arts training to buying cars, houses, or whatever else is pointless. They are too different. Different reasons and different benefits.
As far as running a good successful school, both financially and turning out good students-these are all of our goals. You can have a hardcore fighting school, but I don’t know of any that are full-time,usupported by another job, and making a go of it. If you do-please tell us.
When you teach only an elite clientele, you deprive everyone else who is not hardcore of learning and benefitting from Martial Arts study. Joe Average may not be the next Bruce Lee, or the next Ray Pina, but he can still be the best darned Joe Average he can, better than he was when he walked in, right? You can still have your hardcore inner circle, train them privately, on a different day, have the school of hard knocks available for others who can make the grade, but if you want to eat on a regular basis, and did not hold that winning lotto ticket, you’d better have Joe Average and his pals, and their wives, and their sons and daughters, training all the other days as well.
Ok, back to the topic. Sifu Parella, I am still playing with this idea of the rotating curriculum. I spoke with someone who does TKD, and she says they do something similar. They all do the same workout,self-defense,one-steps, drills, combos, etc and they all test together. The only thing that is different within each rank is actually the forms. One form per rank. They all practice the forms together in class as well, each level doing that particular form-which is easy because most TKD forms are about 30 moves. Not sure how I would do that with sets like Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen and Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen.
You also said, that forms are taufgt after the first three(?) levels? Ok, I can possibly swing that-if I made the real basic sets part of the general workout as opposed to a rank requirement. I also realise that I can teach self defense within the class, as drills? Possibly this would trim away from each individual level.
If I am getting this, lemmie know. But…
here’s a problem I have; one-We do demos, Lion Dancing, and tournaments.
I know you hate Lion Dancing, you can make a demo team, and tournaments aren’t really important, but we DO do Lion Dancing and always need guys at the last minute to grab for demos of forms, AND we enjoy tournaments.
Can I have my cake and eat it too? (that IS the whole idea behind the cake thing, isn’t it?)
TT
ok, I just thought of another glitch-there are alot of different skills that I want to develop in my students-strength, reaction,sensitivity,sparring, etc, if I make all this part of the class, and not separate requirements per “belt”, then how do I manage my classes?
Ray and Sifu Parella,
i can see both points and (to me) both are extremely valid. i think it depends on what the instructors focus is (be it personal or private). granted, there are alot of McDojo's and McKwoons around. down here in Louisiana and Mississipp - it aint much different.
here there are a mix of contracts and non-contract schools. some good - some not-so good. i do believe that contracts will turn-away a fair amount of people (who i believe are those that may not be serious martial artists, but want to try it).
for those who make teaching their livelihood, i believe it is in their best interests to have contracts (agreements), for those like Ray or Myself (because of my work schedule) contracts may not be a good idea. this is how i see it -
Fighters = want to learn no matter what the terms,
Practitioners = do it because they receive some personal pleasure and feeling of accomplishment for their efforts (no matter how high the level of output).
i am in the middle of both of you, in my thinking. i want to produce fighters, who are skilled and can hold there own (at a minimum) - thats how i train. however, i do not want to shun anyone who wants to learn, i would like to spread our kung fu to everyone who want to learn it. my time will dictate what i do.
i do have an idea for an alternative method for both (although there may be varying instances and circumstances which will necessitate adjustment). have a 3-6 month introductory (no-ties) period, this way the newbie can decide for themselves - then if after that period they decide its up to them, offer them a one, two or whatever year contract (that way it is their decision AND they will be commited to you and themselves for their decision).
additionally, if you have a Bai See or inner circle of students (for fighting or whatever reasons), you’ll already have a pool of commited students to look at, as each will have proven (to some degree) that they are committed. for those students, you can charge or not - however you see fit.
Steve
The thing I don’t understand is why can’t you turn Joe Average into Joe Better than Most?
Of course not everyone wants to go out there and be a fighter … but shouldn’t you be training everyone the same way, providing them with the tools to be that if they so choose.
If you join the army, you better learn how to march and shoot straight. That is minimum requirement. Maybe you want to go on and be an explosives expert, or fly helicopters, but there is the basic core skills you must have.
When a student enters the kwoon seaking instruction, I believe, inside, they are looking to become someone who can defend themself. I think they want to become someone who can use their body as a weapon if need be.
I think it’s very often that the school environment and culture slowly brainwashes them to an extent into thinking form is the way to go … which is convenient. Because you could not fight worth a **** but keep teaching form after form after form and then throw in a little line drill and light chi sau and these people trust you, the master, but what do they have at the end of the day? What does it do to your individual style and the name of Kung Fu in general?
I teach my landlord’s son and a friend of his. A neighbor just asked me to teach his little daughter, 10 years old. I started her on Mon. First class: THIS IS YOUR SHIELD … THIS IS HOW YOU REINFORCE IT … I put on boxing gloves and start giving her as much power as she can take, actually a little bit more than she can take so she can train to hold the shape but move her body.
I will not teach her any of the forms I have learned (and mostly forgotten) over the years. But in 2 years she’ll be tough. I’ve been training my landlords son for 3 years, he’s 16 … I’d be comfortable matching him up with most men, even those that are trained. Even better, he’d be comfortable doing it.
I just don’t understand why you don’t try to transform every student and train them all right from the start. It’s a journey but you’re both their anyway, might as well do it right. Newbies will be newbies and advanced will be advanced, but everyone should be learning the same thing … MARTIAL art.
many and perhaps even most of such contracts have 30 or 60 day release clauses in them. In otherwords under the event of life changes, the student can submit a request to be released and after the 30 or sixty day prcessing period, it’s done.
People are simply afraid of getting ‘locked’ into a bad deal like some health clubs had done in the past, to which even if they did not attend, they had to pay and for the full term of the contract.
As long as clubs/kwoons communicate that they are not trying to trap people and thier money, have release clauses, then I beleive most people will accept them. One place I know of even honors private agreements between the school and the student. What I mean by that is, say for instance the student gets injured training or falls ill or has to work for a few months on location somewhere. As long as the situation is explained and preferably at the time it occurs, then the school takes note of it, and at the end of the contract term date, the school allows the student to continue training on an ‘honor’ type system for the time that they lost as a result of that situation, in effect giving them the time they paid for.
Good point, Ray. I like the shield and structure idea. We also do something similar-in Hung-Ga it is Iron Door Jam, Golden Scissors Hands, and Double Bow Tiger Subduing-different “shields”-vertical, crossed,and Horizontal, all basically “crashing” type moves, and we teach this first. The students love it, and to use an overused term, find it “empowering” (ugh). I think it also sets the pace for what is to come. If the student learns the difference between impact and “getting Hit” which is not the same as “Getting hurt” they have taken a big step towards becomming a fighter.
I am all for Joe Average becoming better than most. My question to you is, what about those others. You know the ones I mean. Joe Less than Average? Those kids that cringe when you nudge them. (not talking about those with possible physical or sexual trauma-that’s a whole other ball of wax, possibly to be addressed at a later time) Or the ones that are more on the meek and mild side, yet still want to and deserve to learn Martial Arts.
Of course we can all smile and say, “Well, that’s what the McKwoons are for!”
But the biggest problem with those is that they give the students a false sense of security. From what I have seen, and it is quite alot, the ones with the loudest voices, the biggest false sense of security, come from the guys wearing the McKwoon jackets, patches, and Danny LaRusso Headbands.
I think we can all agree that none of us want that. So, you still need to provide for these guys, and make them into Joe Better than Average, although they still might not ever become “Mean Joe Average” the King of the Cage.
We are definately talking about two different topics on this forum-
Both which are neccesary to have a successful school without compromising your integrity. Perhaps we should divide this into two separate areas-one-teaching skills-which will develop EVERYONE into good Martial Artists, and Buisiness Practices. They are definately tied together, but we can’t discuss both simultaneously.
Deep Breath- ok…Sifu Parrella,
What is the average price for an introductory program, how long does it last, and how much -on average, is a Black Belt Program?
How do you install this into your present class without the bottom dropping out? Of course, if you started your school like this there would be no problem, but to suddenly tell your senior students that they will have to “upgrade” to get what they’ve been getting all along is suicide. Like I said, I am starting to understand the rotating curriculum-I think. Upgrading to BBC-without it looking like an “Upsell” or Bait and Switch, but being a natural progression in their training, and something they WANT to DO.
As far as the naysayers-If you are giving the student the BEST POSSIBLE product you can. If you are giving ALL the BENEFITS, then even though you are charging more, you are not selling out. You are charging and giving them a Mecedes and Filet Mignon, not ripping them off and giving them a Rambler and a BigMac. :eek:
That sounds reasonable.
…
Ten Tigers, personally, I think it is Joe Less Than Average that will need a little bit more of your time. So you set the other guys up first so they can start knocking on each other’s shield a bit, then train with Less Than personally. Keep explaining and demonstrating how a shield is safer than swiping ala wax on, wax off. He can see that, he can feel that.
Demonstrate how when the other guy is too powerful, yes, it sucks, but still not a reason to panic. As soon as you feel the shield wanting to collapse, let the force move you the approproate distance to maintain the shield.
At the same time I introduce them to Bear or shoulder power, so they can start punching with power right away. Who cares if its a big, telegraphed, from the floor upper cut. Get them used to punching and absorbing some blows in a fun way that is not intimidating. Even Joe Retarted can get that down in 3 weeks tops.
My point is, I know doing warm up stretches for 20 minutes, stances for 20 minutes, form for 20 minutes kills an hour. But after three weeks the person might be a little more flexible, have worse knees then when they came, and maybe learned the salutation bow and opening moves of the form.
Maybe in a year they learned a form and a half. At the same time Joe Retarted can stop all linear and rounded attacks to a comfortable degree. One is on their way to being comfortable using their skill, the other has a set of skills that are impressive, but somewhat gymnastic in nature … this is also usually accompanied with a fascination for all things Shaolin and a heavy reliance on past accomplishments of masters who may or may not have been skilled.
Just, for me, if you are teaching you should be good right? You would expect a chess master to play any average joe off the street, right? … and beat them, right? Unless the other guy happened to be ranked like 1700 or something as well.
And if you learned from him, you’d expect to be able to play chess, right? Be able to go to a party and beat most of the people there who want to play, right?
So if these students are turning to a sifu/master for martial arts … how that teacher defines martial arts is what they’ll get.
Maybe we have a hole generation of teachers who are the direct byproduct of this exact thing I’m trying to highlight. For them to actually compare their skills against another is rediculous, absord. It will never happen. They’d rather hide themselves behind their insurance guarded walls and preach their hypocricy … but then we can’t cry boo hoo when other systems look down on Kung Fu as a laughing stock.
Excuse me for all these words and space. Just that I am passionate about this subject and most of what I said should be a given, the starting point. And please, don’t for a second think I don’t realise the real value in martial arts: the focus, the self discipline … the learning that tomorrow is built on today’s foundation … courage, etc.
McDojo’s can teach these things, but a man can’t really be free until he is completely free to express himself … and every time a McDojo black belt bites his tongue in the school yard, a “Master” refuses the opportunity to challenge himself by comparing … somewhere their fancy, contractual training has failed them, and a piece of them dies.
ok Ray, I’m listening. I like what you’re saying, too. Is this the method David Chan uses? What are typical classes like? It sounds like thatis a decent formula. But…also, how many students does he have, does he do this full-time, or does he have a day-job? How does this model stand up to developing a larger school? Can it be done across the board? If so, you might have struck some gold. If not, you might still hold some keys to ways of developing the best of both worlds.
I am constantly working with my curriculum, my teaching methods. Students who train here and take a few months off, have told me that they come back to a different school each time. My school is a work in progress, a living entity. If I can find a better way to get my guys from point A to Point B, then I would be a fool not to do it.
At the same time that i am changing and rearranging my teaching methods, I am also trying to find the best way to accomplish this and earn a good living.
So far, this forum seems to be bringing alot of ideas to the table. Good stuff.