Chi Sao - What do you get?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1005393]
Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them – as your opponent/partner isn’t “feeding” you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.
[/quote]

Sorry but this is just (more) hyperbolic and uninformed BS..

You can’t train to take the line from those who don’t hold it.

You can’t do focused and progressive training on close range VT in a generic sparring environment.

You can’t train VT tools and techniques in a focused and progressive manner in a generic sparring environment.

This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can’t even do this in ChiSao they certainly won’t be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..

So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do… That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..

The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..

Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring…

The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can’t even express many of VT’s elements in a drill.. And if they can’t do that, well then we know they won’t be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.

Simple as that..

22

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1005393]The speed bag isn’t a skill building drill – you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.

“Sensitivity” is just timing derived from our tactile sense.

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them – as your opponent/partner isn’t “feeding” you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.

You don’t get better at fighting by pretend fighting.

The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.[/QUOTE]

Does your point really only highlight that many people aren’t training efficiently, not that the drills themselves are flawed??

23

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1005393]The speed bag isn’t a skill building drill – you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.

“Sensitivity” is just timing derived from our tactile sense.

Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them – as your opponent/partner isn’t “feeding” you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.

You don’t get better at fighting by pretend fighting.

The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.[/QUOTE]

The speed bag is only a skill building drill. Hand eye coordination is a skill which can be developed and improved. Relaxed but fast and accurate hand positioning is a skill to be developed and improved. It’s got some corollary benefits, but primarily a skill improvement device.

The ideas are directly linked to combat, even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.

THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.

24

[QUOTE=shawchemical;1005680]Does your point really only highlight that many people aren’t training efficiently, not that the drills themselves are flawed??[/QUOTE]

Whether you see the drills as “flawed” depends on what you believe they do.

If you see the WCK drills as developing fighting skills (by doing the drills, you can then perform the actions in fighting), then they are flawed since they don’t and can’t do that.

If, however, you see them ONLY as a platform for learning the actions (techniques, movements, etc.) of WCK, then they aren’t flawed.

25

[QUOTE=shawchemical;1005682]The speed bag is only a skill building drill. Hand eye coordination is a skill which can be developed and improved. Relaxed but fast and accurate hand positioning is a skill to be developed and improved. It’s got some corollary benefits, but primarily a skill improvement device.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not a skill – a skill is your ability to perform a task with max certainty and min time/effort. Coordination is an attribute that goes into skill.

The ideas are directly linked to combat,

Who cares if “ideas” are directly related to “combat”? You could say that about almost anything.

even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.

Obviously you haven’t trained under a good boxing coach – boxing is much, much more than that and is very sophisticated. But, you can’t appreciate that by NOT doing it.

Hitting the heavy bag isn’t a skill building drill either – it is a conditioning drill.

THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.

No, you ONLY develop skill by and through performing that skill itself. How do you develop skill at riding a bike or swimming or surfing or any other athletic activity? By and through the performance of the activity. It’s no different with WCK.

26

[QUOTE=YungChun;1005629]Sorry but this is just (more) hyperbolic and uninformed BS..

You can’t train to take the line from those who don’t hold it.

You can’t do focused and progressive training on close range VT in a generic sparring environment.

You can’t train VT tools and techniques in a focused and progressive manner in a generic sparring environment.
[/QUOTE]

Every functional martial art (boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, sambo, wrestling, etc.) makes sparring the core learning/training platform.

Just as they do, you can make sparring a progressive and focused activity – IF YOU KNOW HOW.

This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can’t even do this in ChiSao they certainly won’t be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..

Chi sao in many ways is counter-productive – it gives you a false sense of WCK as you are only practicing unrealsitic WCK when you do it.

You can start off by teaching trainees HOW TO USE the basic strategic framework of WCK (the faat), HOW TO USE the basic skills to execute that game plan, and then let them practice actually DOING it against a genuinely resisting opponent (sparring), and then build off that basic framework. That’s what we do.

Of course, this presumes that the instructor himself knows the basic strategic framework, knows how to use the fundamental skills to execute it, etc.

So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do… That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..

I agree with you. But, instead of using a platform that is unrealistic and doesn’t develop fighting skills – look, people like TST, etc. have been doing chi sao their entire lives and couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, doesn’t that tell you that chi sao doesn’t develop skill?-- why not use a realistic platform? Why not practice doing it exactly like you will, under the same conditions, the same context, etc.? In that way, your drilling looks exactly like your fighting.

The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..

And because they are not fighting/sparring they cannot develop fighting skills. That’s the whole point. You don’t learn to fight and develop fighting skills by NOT fighting. So these drills are mainly a waste of time. I say “mainly” since they are fine as an introduction, a way to learn the actions themselves (develop coordination, etc.). But once you have that and are comfortable doing the action, it is time to move on – after that the drill becomes a disease. And, you don’t need to learn that way. As the functional arts show us, there is a better way.

Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring…

It’s true on anything that isn’t realistic.

The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can’t even express many of VT’s elements in a drill.. And if they can’t do that, well then we know they won’t be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.

Simple as that..

The trouble is there is NO progression with unrealisitic training, it is an illusion.

27

[QUOTE=chusauli;1005178]
There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.[/QUOTE]

IMHO, this statment says more about WC (as I see it at least) thany any thread on here. Thanx for that Chusauli.

28

Thank you Zenmind!

Learning WCK is like learning a foreign language in school. You learn phrases, pick up practice dialogues, take tests, but when it comes down to it - can you really speak the language?

I learned French for 5 years in Jr. High and High School. I read some books in French, and at times, I’ve flown AirFrance for 17 hours, listened to lectures of French speaking acupuncturists with English translation, watch French movies, and when I was in Paris, I struggled and stammered to find where my luggage was… LOL! And in Canada, my French was ridiculed! I admit, my spoken French and grammar is terrible.

So one can learn something, but it is not natural. Perhaps because I already am bilingual it is my excuse, and perhaps if someday I live in a French speaking country, I can draw upon it.

WCK not practiced well and not learned well will be like my lousy French and would be BS.