Chi Gerk

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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First, if the spelling is wrong, I apologize. Some WC buddies and I have been discussing chi gerk lately and I thought it would make for an interesting topic.

Train it / Don’t train it / Don’t care?

I see it as an often overlooked tool…especially in the dirty boxing range. Not the typical movements (or typical named ideals - ex. bong gerk, etc.) which seem focused on leg checks or larger sweeps. I see it as more subtle - towards using leg/knee/foot “sensitivity” or positioning in a way to off-balance or set up something else.

Any useful tools / thoughts / experiences you could share from your training?

Thanks

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I hate it. Every time we train chi gerk heavily I end up hardly being able to walk for a day or two afterwards.

OTOH I wish I trained it more often. It definitely provides some useful skill. I really like a few of the kicks and it’s frustrating when you’re up against someone with good leg skills - gives them a great advantage.

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EBMAS guys use your sensitivity aspect to get straight in and take the center, while keeping the leg “springy” in case manuvering needs to be done. Weight’s on the back leg almost entirely, so that when someone is attempting to sweep the front leg posture is maintained. I think EB even showed a bit of it on the seminar video that’s floating around. While not chi gerk in the traditional sense, I’m thinking that might be more of what you were asking about.

From a traditional standpoint, the bong/jing/jut gurk setup which is great, but I prefer to use more of a free flowing san sao approach to it; as that’s the way it was shown to me originally.

Overall I think it’s a great tool. I’ve always liked being able to offset someone with my legs, and have always used my legs to block and manipulate low attacks. Additionally I’m almost always using gerk techniques down low at the same time I’m using sao fot…so the skill in my mind is imperitive.

…

What’s always worked well for me is when I enter from an “outside” angle, say like a right tan sao/tan do vs a right punch. Depending on the leg positioning (which leg I stepped forward with) I’d leg reap inwards or outwards while controlling the arm and elbow with some sort of chin-na. It’s a good setup…and while it doesn’t work 100% of the time, it works more often than not, because once someone is unbalanced, the mind is redirected from the punching arm allowing me to more easily manipulate it into and arm bar or a standing figure 4 lock (kimura type lock).

Good question.

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I’ll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :slight_smile:
Yip Man didn’t chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I’ve heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I’ll see if Ican find it.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;855141]I’ll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :slight_smile:
Yip Man didn’t chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I’ve heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I’ll see if Ican find it.[/QUOTE]

Yip Man obviously didn’t have the REAL WC :smiley:

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Yip Man taught leg defenses/checks and such but no formal chi geuk exercise like in chi sao. Here is the article I refered to:

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;855144]Yip Man obviously didn’t have the REAL WC :D[/QUOTE]
I knew I was going to get hit with sarcasm or worse . …:smiley:

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;855147]I knew I was going to get hit with sarcasm or worse . …:D[/QUOTE]

Didn’t you know ??
Only one system of WC is the real WC, and its Sil Lum Wing Chun :smiley:
Everything else, is just samba dancing and jell-o wrestling.

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Sifu Redmond - Yip Man or no Yip Man, do you see any worth in the training?

Again, I don’t know about the legs high in the air stuff. We do an exercise from time to time just to get a feel for anatomy and balance. With a partner standing in various stances, use your hands to manipulate their knee and feel how to move the joint in ways that cause it give way. And by stance, it could be anything from a solid formal stance, to one that is off balanced after a missed punch, legs together, legs apart, etc.

After getting a feel, then during drills if you find yourself in a position where your legs are close to your opponents, you can try to manipulate their knee using your shin, your knee, your ankle, etc. Or, lock their foot in place as you move the rest of their body causing stress on the joints. The balance break is only a split second, so a bridge with the hands works well to take advantage with a strike or push.

I find myself in this type of situation during the clinch or dirty boxing. Not necessarily looking for it, but if I feel my leg close to the opponents, I believe it could be a good tool.

Would this still be considered chi geuk? (thanks for the spelling)

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[QUOTE=Wilson;855151]Sifu Redmond - Yip Man or no Yip Man, do you see any worth in the training?

Again, I don’t know about the legs high in the air stuff. We do an exercise from time to time just to get a feel for anatomy and balance. With a partner standing in various stances, use your hands to manipulate their knee and feel how to move the joint in ways that cause it give way. And by stance, it could be anything from a solid formal stance, to one that is off balanced after a missed punch, legs together, legs apart, etc.

After getting a feel, then during drills if you find yourself in a position where your legs are close to your opponents, you can try to manipulate their knee using your shin, your knee, your ankle, etc. Or, lock their foot in place as you move the rest of their body causing stress on the joints. The balance break is only a split second, so a bridge with the hands works well to take advantage with a strike or push.
I find myself in this type of situation during the clinch or dirty boxing. Not necessarily looking for it, but if I feel my leg close to the opponents, I believe it could be a good tool.

Would this still be considered chi geuk? (thanks for the spelling)[/QUOTE]
There are some very good lower gate leg checks and blocks in the various versions of WC. But trying to do a circling exercise to emulate chi sao wasn’t part of Yip Man’s curriculum according to what I was taught. I always add according to what I was taught/told because none of us were around in those days to make any concrete claims. The spelling gerk is acceptable. I’m just anal at the fact that Cantonese has no ‘r’ sounds. :cool:

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;855149]Everything else, is just samba dancing and jell-o wrestling.[/QUOTE]
You’re saying that like it’s a bad thing. :stuck_out_tongue:

Bill

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Sifu Redmond/Wilson:

We were working chi geuk this week and did both the slow bong geuk and chi geuk (inside/outside) exercises from your article posted. We also took it a little further and did some leg checking drills (my shins are busted up a little bit). What’s TWC’s position on leg checks for kicks? If/when do you see a use for them? How do these leg positions relate to the Entry Technique in TWC?

Thanks,

BRnPA

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[QUOTE=BRnPA;855183]Sifu Redmond/Wilson:

We were working chi geuk this week and did both the slow bong geuk and chi geuk (inside/outside) exercises from your article posted. We also took it a little further and did some leg checking drills (my shins are busted up a little bit). What’s TWC’s position on leg checks for kicks? If/when do you see a use for them? How do these leg positions relate to the Entry Technique in TWC?

Thanks,

BRnPA[/QUOTE]
Interruptibility is an essential part of TWC. Obviously we’re speaking of the TWC entry where the leg is raised. There are various other ways of closing the gap (entering), but I’ll deal with the raised leg entry. The raised leg could turn into a kick or even be a feint, “Generally” the leg is raised if there is an attack (kick/punch), to the lower gate. If contact is made on the raised leg you’ll need to be able to interrupt and change to an advantagous position. When we do train the raised leg entry we have to be able to deal with an opponent moving back, laterally, diagonally, charging in, round/front/side/spin kicking, shooting in for a takedown, etc.

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I was taught Chi Gerk and I teach it to people as well. I think it’s really important. I see it this way:

I was always taught ‘elbow to elbow/diamond to diamond.’ The Dai Bong (Low-Action Bong) is a good example of this. If my hands are at my sides (unprepared defense) and my attacker strikes low, I can easily Dai Bong. This generally lands on their forearm or best if their elbow. But, of course, I’m only seeking centre.

As in the above example, I see the elbow-to-elbow nature with the Chi Gerk. I like the knee-to-knee drills that are in the photos/article Phil provided. I use that drill a lot in the beginning. It really helps drive a sensitivity home for when your opponent lifts their leg…you can easily and sub-consciously lift yours.

The drills really have a mind of their own after a while. After chasing centre with all the arm and leg drills, in a sparring session, you easily chase the centre and lift a leg when your opponent kicks, etc.

So, I love the Chi Gerk exercises. They help reinforce the maxim (visually as well as with sensitivity): Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot, there is no unstoppable technique.

Hope this helps,
Kenton

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[QUOTE=couch;855253]I was taught Chi Gerk and I teach it to people as well. I think it’s really important. I see it this way:

I was always taught ‘elbow to elbow/diamond to diamond.’ The Dai Bong (Low-Action Bong) is a good example of this. If my hands are at my sides (unprepared defense) and my attacker strikes low, I can easily Dai Bong. This generally lands on their forearm or best if their elbow. But, of course, I’m only seeking centre.

As in the above example, I see the elbow-to-elbow nature with the Chi Gerk. I like the knee-to-knee drills that are in the photos/article Phil provided. I use that drill a lot in the beginning. It really helps drive a sensitivity home for when your opponent lifts their leg…you can easily and sub-consciously lift yours.

The drills really have a mind of their own after a while. After chasing centre with all the arm and leg drills, in a sparring session, you easily chase the centre and lift a leg when your opponent kicks, etc.

So, I love the Chi Gerk exercises. They help reinforce the maxim (visually as well as with sensitivity): Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot, there is no unstoppable technique.

Hope this helps,
Kenton[/QUOTE]

Hi Kenton, since Wing Chun is a “Kuen” the option to enhance Wing Chun is open.
Chi Geuk (gerk) may help some people. :wink:

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Opinions

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;855141]I’ll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :slight_smile:
Yip Man didn’t chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I’ve heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I’ll see if Ican find it.[/QUOTE]

Phil- you are entitled to your opinion…mine is different. Depends on who you ask.
joy chaudhuri

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No chi-gerk…from V Kan And WSL …leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er… ah, one leg :smiley:
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg…a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another …to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do ;). theres more but …

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;855336]No chi-gerk…from V Kan And WSL …leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er… ah, one leg :smiley:
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg…a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another …to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do ;). theres more but …[/QUOTE]
I agree Kevin. I’ve had three of Yip Man’s students and a few others tell me that there was no standing on one leg circling exercise taught by YM and that it was made up by some students. But if it works for some it’s all good.

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There is no Chi Gerk with Hawkins Cheung either. I also know that William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung did not have it. Koo Sang mentioned it when I trained with him in 1987. When I visited Lo Man Kam and Tsui Sheung Tien in 1987, they did not have the exercise.

I think it is a method developed in the 1960’s with Ng Chan, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Koo Sang, etc.

IMO, it should not be an exercise to stay up on one leg, but rather, a dynamic method of trapping the knees, breaking balance, guiding kicks, shaving legs, kicking the support leg, push horse, deflection, striking with the knees, etc.

The way I teach it is we start in a parallel or cross leg and when we feel an opponent’s kick or leg raise, we move with it. It becomes a dynamic exercise that can be added to Chi Sao or San Sao. Without this exercise, people get “loose” about low leg defense…

Chi Gerk/Sticking Legs Categories include:

Stepping – Moving the stance
Trapping – Trapping the opponent’s leg
Striking – Use of the foot, knee, shin, thigh
Intercepting – cutting off the opponent’s attack
Running – going away from the force
Sweeping – Destroying the opponent’s balance
Sticking – Moving with the opponent
Asking – Inquiring the next move
Protecting – Guarding the body and placement of the knee

The above is how I categorize skills, I do not teach these as techniques. These are my categorization and progressions, and not anyone else’s.

Augustine Fong did run through his system with me when he visited NYC in the 80’s. I combined what I learned from him and from my other instructors and have this method now. Probably Augustine was the first to really show his system in depth. I admire his innovation and teachings to the art.

Hawkins Cheung, due to his small stature, probably has the best legs in WCK (that I have seen). He used his methods of leg checks, disruptions, counters, offbalancing on me first hand. And I sparred him and received many a leg kick with his hard dress boots on… fortunately, since I am a Chinese medicine practitioner, I have good Dit Da and acupuncture to help me forget about the pain… :slight_smile:

WCK needs to develop this skill - it is still a viable skill for the lower gates.

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V Kan just did a simple right angle knee/shin lift to a low kick ..it could combine going in and following or dropping the leg back to recover if the guy came in, keeping balance…better to take it on the shin than the 'monkey steals the peaches" :wink:
The action was swift up down not stay in air dumdeedum …

Our training did include 3 minute on one leg holding the lead leg up in this manner.:smiley: sounds easy :slight_smile:
along with same holding balance chambered in sidekick positions, or after multiple front /side kicks , simply for balance training. But any of these combos could easily follow the path of leg sticking if allowed to. one can use anything to acomplish the goal at hand so it was never said you cannot, but rather ‘no limit as limit’…V kan also showed close quarter counters to leg attacks involving simple foot to knee stamps to finish.