Challeneged Emin Boztepe this Sat.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I showed up at Emin Boztepe’s seminar a little early this Sat. and waited for him outside. As soon as he rolled up I requested a match.

He was curious as to why I wanted to fight him, so I told him it was strictly business, that he had a big reputation and just happened to be in NYC at the same time his picture was on the cover of an industry magazine. I also added that his reputatation for what he did to Master Chueng made it a little easier.

He did invite me up. He did say he didn’t want to fight me because he had no hate for me and needs that to fight but also said he didn’t want to put me in the hospital.

Now, this was different than some folks who say they’re worried about insurance and being sued. He didn’t mention anything about his welfare, he truly was looking out for mine, believing he could seriously hurt me.

I assured him I knew all of these consequences when I woke up and decided to have a friend come film me challenge him on a NYC street corner.

So what to do?

He started his seminar and gave me some face, telling his students that a “brave young man” came to challenge him … and alone for that matter. He set them up for some drills and we chi saud but it was more like clinch work/grappling.

I have to say, this man now has my respect. Though we didn’t fight he didn’t dodge me either. He was very open, and told me Master Cheugn was 43 when he fought him, the same age he is now having invited me up to play. He also sai Chueng insulted his master. That’s why he did what he did and I can’t fault him for that either.

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique. It was wise for him not to fight me because with all his students their he’d have to hold nothing back, and I didn’t go there with the camera to lose. It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don’t feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.

It’s hard to say, and I do have a bit of regret because I’ll never know how I’d match up without actually fighting him but wnated to be fair. The man has talent and deserves what he gets out of martial arts. Actually, he deserved more … there was only about 10 folks at his seminar and his wing chun was good. Usually I find it week and unstructured. Maybe his work with Judo Jean La Bell has helped. But power and structure was there. I was impressed with his technique, but more so with him. He’s a real martial artist and carries himself with dignity and respect.

I went to fight and left with a friend.

2

He pats your head and you wag your tail?

3

I’m not quite sure what you mean?

My take is that I challenged a man to fight, and he was highly aware of the consequences of the two of us fighting and I believe he handled the situation well. Neither of us had to get hurt, but we could feel the other’s level. He didn’t run or hide behind the fact that he had a seminar to do, that he was worried about the insurance of the school he was holding this at.

Compare this to others who have very big mouths and when asked to demonstrate someting they give you every excuse in the book.

In the past I read a lot of negative things about this man, but having faced him man to man, spoked to him, and had an opportunity to play with himn a bit, he has my full respect.

I don’t give martial praise lightly, because honestly, I think most martial artists are full of $hit. They talk a lot, they ask for you to stand there while they demonstrate on you, but rarely free play live with a stranger.

This man literally accepted a challenger off a NYC street corner and displayed that he had skill and power.

I went there to fight. In my mind when I went to bed on Fri. night I was waking up for a battle in which I intended to hurt a man. This was a nice surprise.

Say what you will.

4

So you challenge Sifu Ross to a fight, and when he says to come by his gym any time for a sparring session with any of his students, you rag on him, but when you challenge Emin to a fight and he basically says “No, I don’t want to hurt you” and compliments you at his seminar, you’re all smiles?

It sounds like you care less about testing your skills and more about having your ego fed.

5

This was my impression when I met him. Hes a good guy and a great martial artist. Anyone who trained as hard as he did has my respect independent of lineage or style. FWIW Ray I dont know your level so this maybe presumptious but I think he would have seriously hurt you if it came to it.

6

You should have called Leung-Ting a 4-eyed freak who never actually trained with Yip Man. :eek: Apparently this is the only true justification for two martial artists to fight. And in that case, age doesn’t matter.

you should have told him that your master teaches tai-chi without forms and asked him if he thought it was effective. If he said no, pow!! :stuck_out_tongue:

7

I used to train in the Wing Tsun (Master Leung Ting’s) system for about a year when Emin Boztepe was still part of that organization. I attended a couple of seminars that he led, and I can testify that he is very skilled.

Regarding the Boztepe/Cheung incident, here’s what I heard about the circumstances leading up to that: supposedly in the year or two prior to the incident William Cheung had been making a lot of statements in the martial arts press regarding his Wing Chun being superior and disrespecting the other masters. These other masters, all of whom had trained under Yip Man and considered each other brothers, went to Leung Ting and talked to him about it (they respected Leung Ting because he was the last closed-door private student of Yip Man before he died). Leung Ting then put the word out within his organization and Emin Boztepe confronted Cheung at a seminar in Germany (Boztepe had been training under Leung Ting’s student Keith Kernspecht in Germany). The rest, as they say, is history and you can view the footage online. While it was not Wing Chun’s finest hour, it was my understanding that Cheung had really backed the rest of the Wing Chun community into a corner; and while they had some residual respect for him as a brother and fellow disciple of Yip Man, something had to be done at that point because Cheung had disrepected too many people for too long and had forced the Wing Chun community’s hand. It is worth noting that Cheung has been humble and quiet ever since this incident.

Years later Boztepe left Leung Ting’s organization. I am uncertain of the exact reasons but it seemed to be a clash of personalites; Boztepe was always pretty confident and I think he wanted to head his own organization and be the one to run things. Some of the students I trained with left with him, others stayed in the Leung Ting organization. Unfortunately I dropped out of Wing Tsun due to lack of time (family, work, etc). I have recently gotten back into kung fu, but am now going to a different school (not Wing Chun). I might take up Wing Chun again at some point though.

8

Age and a reputation will mellow a person. I’ve not heard a negative thing about Emin as a teacher, it sounds like he’s putting the hothead thing behind him.

I have to say that Emin showed some real class and smarts dealing with Ray. Take it as a valuable lesson. :slight_smile:

9

He certainly did. And I learned something about professionalism.

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Sifu Ross and I disagreed about training methods, mostly conditioning. I insist that conditioning plays a role when two equaly weighted young men agree to hop into a ring with gear and fight with stoppage for multiple rounds. Its been my experience, that when fighting for real, with no gear and no stoppage until someone is out or taps, verocious, solid technique is most important. In fact, fights are over before a sweat is broken.

This has been my experience growing up fighting and witnessing fights, as is my experience now that I’m doing this kind of fighting.

We could talk back and forth all day on this, instead I suggested Mr. Ross fight me to show me his technique. He told me he was too old and retired … which kind of made my point (though I’d still fight one of his students with the same conditions: no gear, no stoppage to KO or tap).

Mr. Boztepe, who I had no prior experience with, welcomed me, a stranger, up to test his skills. I did not want to press him in ront of paying customers out of respect. The man was not only a gentleman but confident – two qualities I respect. In the end, at our levels, we did not need to come to blows. He felt each other’s power and technique.

Though I have an uneasy feeling about not accomplishing what I set out to do that day, I’m satisfied with the outcome.

Mr. Boztepe has my total respect.

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Since you want to bring it up AGAIN , yawn ,…

Yes, we did disagree about conditioning… but I offered to spar you personally if you wanted to come down during a sparring class, follow our basic rules and wear the gear we use here.

You declined.

I told you I saw nothing positive in you just wanting to come to my school and having a no rules brawl…

You were petulant and tried to get me to go your way with some petty insults. I still declined, but offered you if you were willing to make it worth my while, ie PAY ME, then I’d do it…

You either didn’t have the cash or had no interest in paying me, so I let it drop

12

Boy, things sure are different out there in kung fu land. If some one woke up one morning thinking that they wanted to go out and whip some one’s arse, I can only hope they took the time to make final resting plans.

I mean really Pina, re-read your post and see if you don’t see how childish and out and out silly it sounds. I tell ya, it is amazing that some people have made as long as they have.

Hey, if this bothers you, how about we meet at the playground after school…or better yet, how about a duel at the OK corral… :rolleyes:

13

Well the guy he challenged did the exact same thing to another, famously, in the past.

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I don’t remeber insulting you. And if I did I’m sorry.

The thing I’m concerned about is coming to your school and getting caught up playing your game. If you want me to wear head gear and boxing gloves – if that is the only way you’ll play with me – I’ll meat you half way. I’ll put the gear on. But I want no stoppage of action. We go until someone taps or is KOed.

As far as paying you for that honor, what seperates you from the guys I’m fighting now for free? You have studied with a famous man, and have produced fighters for this relatively centralized San Da community but I am unaware of any “street cred” as Seven Star puts it. Meaning, who have you beaten that makes you such a big deal?

My interest in you is not for building my reputation, it is to close this matter. Sport is sport. Fighting is demolish the other man or be demolished.

15

Keep doing your form and meditating on the Tao and I’ll keep doing this and then we’ll meet up in say 5 years from now … who would you put your money on?

16

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique. It was wise for him not to fight me because with all his students their he’d have to hold nothing back, and I didn’t go there with the camera to lose. It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don’t feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.

Doesn’t this statement pretty much back up the logic used by some of the Sifu that you challenged (e.g Sifu Parrella) as you relate below…"

Now, this was different than some folks who say they’re worried about insurance and being sued.

From a third party view of what has been said over these many months (coming from me, a general forum lurker and a person with no ambition to fight and in fact spend most of my time avoiding them), it seems that while people like Sifu Ross actually accepted your challenge with the stipulation that chances of injury be minimized (which frankly seems to a logical and prudent thing to do), Sifu Boztepe expertly avoided one by stroking your ego a little. In the end this says more about your path then it does of either men don’t you think? You say things like:

My interest in you is not for building my reputation, it is to close this matter. Sport is sport. Fighting is demolish the other man or be demolished.

If you truely believe in the last sentence, then why would you say “It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don’t feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.” Isn’t dealing with the injuries part of true fighting? I don’t fight because I realize that for the most I’d be the person eating the floor and I can’t afford to deal with injuries because of my profession (And I say this as a person with not an unsizable ego).

I guess I don’t really know who you are, but since you have posted these things in a public forum, I guess it isn’t unreasonable or inappropriate for someone to point out some inconsistancies in your arguements as one sees them.

17

I posted what I posted because a) I thought folks would find it interesting due to Mr. Boztepe’s reputation and B) Because I felt he deserved the positive feedback.

As for fighting and injuries, they do happen. I’ve been lucky that since training with my master my body has changed a bit and I seem more resilient … some injuries have actually healed.

But, more importantly is my master’s motto: Don’t go fight someone, go beat them.

I have to say, I’m not sure I could have gotten a victory over Mr. Boztepe without “fighting”, incurring some damage… just the feeling I got. In fact, he could have beaten me. Hard to say without fighting.

What I do not want to do though is face someone I have had disagreements with and have all these obstacles between us. If we are going to fight we should fight and do it right. We’re not kids at a tournament. We’re men. If you’re going to say something, even over the safety of the internet, know you can be called on it.

When one grown martial artist puts down another he should be ready to face that man bear knuckle. If he’s not comfortable with that, he should speak more softly, not be so orrogant, not be so quick to call someone out.

I don’t know. Right or wrong that is my feeling on the matter.

18

HAHA! As we age, we all become confidence men.

Ray, you might have kicked his butt, and he feared you as he would fear a younger version of himself.

Can’t fault a man for being wise.

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The more you post, the more I feel I have proved my point. Challenges are stupid and achieve nothing…

You will believe whatever it is you WANT to believe… you think I “just” produce San Da fighters, the numerous awards my people have won in kickboxing, boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling and mixed martial arts you either ignore or manage not to be conscious of…

Simply put, you want to put me in a box checked “sport” but the reality is, we are about fighting, period…

Guys like Chris Jurak who trained with me YEARS ago, will tell you two things;

  1. We’ve always been about fighting

and

  1. I’ve had more than my share of “no rules” brawls…

But after 10 or 12 of them, probably more than 99% of this board has by the way, I can tell you, they end up meaning nothing, because once they are done, there’s another guy waiting next week for another one.

No matter how many times I"ve closed the doors and done one of those, it’s never put money in my pocket, sent my wife on vacation, or made the trolls go away…

Simply put, it’s a waste of my time. Who am I? To paraphrase an old Chinese saying, If you don’t know, why should I bother telling you?

20

I’m sorry. I thought I was speaking to someone else all along.

I play chess because I’m a chess player. Someone wants to play with me I ablidge them to see if I can handle their technique and strategy and if not why I failed. I don’t think about how I can gain financially from it, unless we are playing for money but that just makes it more interesting between two guys who are close in skill.

I’m the same way with martial arts. If someone wants to play I’ll play for the love of it, the challenge. Not him challenging me. Me challenging myself.

Does my training allow me to enter into the situation feling safe and secure? Has my experience given me the tools that I’ll need for this individual? That’s it. That’s the reason.

If you have done all of this in the past that is great. But why have you retired so soon? You are still a young man, especially by Chinese martial arts standars.

As far as your student’s, it’s great. I respect what you’re doing for them. But I hope you are preparing them for a lifetime of competive training. Allowing them to compete against the young when they are old, the big when they are small. This is martial art.

That’s your business – your fighters. And I wish you well, really. Like I said, I put all that behind us.