Ray Pina

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Ray pina and anyone who cares.
I wont high jack the other thread so I will post this only once, if you need to make anothe issue out of it then Ray please have respect for the this thread and create another one.

I will cut and past the message sent to me via PM from Ray Pina and my response to him then the response I got today which all changed. Like I said yes my competition days and ring fighting is over for me. I still train and teach but now its for my students not for anything else espcially to prove something to you Ray. I am much older calmer and wiser…

However when you said you were driving to my school to challange me in front of my students that was out of line and disprectful to any sifu. And quite honestly tradtionally you would not be able to even touch hands with me as a sifu until you beat my lowest level student and worked your way up.. why would I bother?? but i agreed and even said you could stay at my house! then you back peddled this morning after I said come on to NY and repied to my PM in the following message

[B]quote PM from Ray pnia

Your last message was vague.

Be clear about this: I will arrive with 1 student to film our fight. I will only fight, not spar, you. No gear, we fight to submission or until one of us is out.

This will happen sometime between this Sunday and next Sunday.

If you don’t want this to happen, simply reply “we are on different paths.” I can acknowledge that.

But please understand that I am A) trying to bring out a previously unknown style and B) making a run at a pro career.

I can’t accept being accused of being an internet warrior, not at this stage. I have to prove something for my style and myself.

So your next response can end this today civily and privately or confirm us for next week publicly (to assure I don’t drive up there for nothing ie, we will publicly obsolve each other of injury and then again in person on film).

Remeber, “We are on different paths” and this is other now.[/B]

My response
If you have something to prove to yourself then so be it. I dont really have anything to prove to you but if it makes you feel like a man to challenge me then by all means stop up. Just let me know what day during the day will be best as classes are scheduled from 5:30 till about 9:30 pm M-F. I use no gear and have no rules except eye gouging groin shots or fish hooking.
I do want you to know I’m 6’2 238 with a 38 inch reach so dont let size be an excuse. My school is right off the 290 Youngman Expressway just exsit Elmwood Ave ave and I am about 2 miles on the left hand side 2811.

part 1 becuse this message is too big

Re: Decide what we should do

part 2

I dont know what this means to me? But I highly doubt driving 7 hours to be taught a lesson will help you in your path but its up to you. I would also like to put you up to fight one of my students if you wish he might be a little more in your league and closer to your level. His name is Joel Sutton, He fought and won the UFC #6 and 7 and represented me and our stlye 8 step kung fu noted the bloddiest UFC match in history, he split the guys heqad open and Mccarthey had to stop the fight… look him up on the inter net or on my website under articles.. he will be at the school with me just to make sure you buddy doesnt jump in

[B]Ray Pina response
I replied to your post on Ross thread. I thought this was over when you said you only fight to protect your family. I rarely check my PMs

However, driving 7 hours to beat you is rediculous. You don’t mean anything to me. I just want you to stand behind your comments. So let’s do a charity fight in a nuetral ground… you’re size and rules are acceptable to me. I’m willing to bet $1,000 if you’re interested also.[/B]

??? WTF does this guy want from me? this internet tough guy thing is way out of control. I guess anybody at any level can challenge any higher level sifu they want, then pretend to say thier not internested? OK why should I dirve to some made up charity event? thier tongues should be cut out like in the old days for disrespecting an elder!

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I’m sorry Earth Dragon, but I do not regard you as a high-level sifu. Anyone can be a sifu… this is why, after thinking about things, that I decided it would be a disservice to myself to spend money renting a car, driving 7 hours, staying overnight, fighting you, driving seven hours back. My whole weekend shot… and to do what?

I know the outcomes: either I get there and you respond we can’t fight because of insurance, or you pull some crap about figthing your students.

I highly doubt your newest, lowest level student is going to be down with me dropping him and pounding him in his face … for you.

Do you think I’m some newbie? Yes, I’ve only been with my master for 4 years, and have thrown away much of what I learned earlier, but I know how these things work: see my style, tire me out, and then maybe play with me or at the last minute declare, “Oh, you do have good technique brother, let’s go get lunch.”

Bull$hit.

First, my lineage places me higher than you: In E-chuan, I’m learning from the founder. In Ba Gua, I’m learning from 4th generation. Even in your primary style, I trained S Mantis under Gin Foon Mark’s disciple in NYC Chinatown.

Ontop of all of that, who cares about lineage? Truth of the matter is, you bothered me last week and I realised why should I be bothered by you … you’re just a bum. I’m going to be fighting many honorable and high-level fighters in my lifetime.

I’m 32 and just starting. You’re 39 and washed up having never even been. Sorry, you’re my elder in years. I have respect for you as a human being, but in martial arts I actually look down on you. Even your web site is full of disinformation in regards to Taoist monks sweeping outside Shaolin. Maybe Taoists visited the Buddhist temple, maybe they stayed … but to have guests outside sweeping and there the day your mythical figure showed up … bull$hit! 8 Step Mantis groundfighting undeafted in the UFC? … bull$hit. That is not 8 step Mantis to begin with, and that was not undeafeted. Also, the UFC in the 90s is not the UFC of today. And most of all, because I don’t want to take anything away from that young man who fought there (My God, for that alone he has my total respect!) … it has nothing to do with you.

I doubt these words will stir you, and not because of some spiritual center, but because if you acted on them some terrible realities will be brought to light to you and your students. I know you have nothing to prove. You push around imaginary beings all day while doing form and then when that aint enough you’ll beat on your defenseless students. You’re a very honorable champion.

But don’t talk to me about respect. You haven’t done anything to earn it. Some combat karate tournaments in the 80s is a far cry from fighting. I know because I was competing in them too … Don Negal, etc., etc.

Believe me, I’m not worried about the long reach associated with your weak body, I’m not worried about the skill you have in your mind. If you accept the charity match or to meet me on closer grounds, I’m willing to place $1,000 cash ontop of your $1,000 cash and the winner – the one who can walk over to it – takes it all.

What says you Shifu For Life?

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I’m sorry Earth Dragon, but I do not regard you as a high-level sifu. Anyone can be a sifu… this is why, after thinking about things, that I decided it would be a disservice to myself to spend money renting a car, driving 7 hours, staying overnight, fighting you, driving seven hours back. My whole weekend shot… and to do what?

I dont really care, your the one who challenged me. I accepted now you backed out. make up excuses now no worries ray

I know the outcomes: either I get there and you respond we can’t fight because of insurance, or you pull some crap about figthing your students.

so you can tell the future? another excuse

I highly doubt your newest, lowest level student is going to be down with me dropping him and pounding him in his face … for you.

another excuse, but to set the record straight my lowest level student came from another style (Judo) and has many fights under his belt for being a 23 year old and I think he could beat you but I guess we will never find out becuse your not a man of your word

[B]Do you think I’m some newbie? Yes, I’ve only been with my master for 4 years, and have thrown away much of what I learned earlier, but I know how these things work: see my style, tire me out, and then maybe play with me or at the last minute declare, “Oh, you do have good technique brother, let’s go get lunch.”

Bull$hit.[/B]

another excuse and again a fortune teller who sees the future

First, my lineage places me higher than you: In E-chuan, I’m learning from the founder. In Ba Gua, I’m learning from 4th generation. Even in your primary style, I trained S Mantis under Gin Foon Mark’s disciple in NYC Chinatown.

Its impossible to rank higher in any lineage that is not in the same family genius. That remark shows your ignorance. Anyway ba bu is not southern again it shows your ignorance.My lineaghe can be found on the mantis cave the world wide mantis lineage chart is your name there under any style of southen mantis? let me check ummmmmmmmm NO!


Ontop of all of that, who cares about lineage? Truth of the matter is, you bothered me last week and I realised why should I be bothered by you … you’re just a bum. I’m going to be fighting many honorable and high-level fighters in my lifetime.

Good for you and I wish you well, keep up your career. maybe after you get knocked out a couple of times perhaps you will not be so full of yourself and learn some respect.

I’m 32 and just starting. You’re 39 and washed up having never even been. Sorry, you’re my elder in years. I have respect for you as a human being, but in martial arts I actually look down on you. Even your web site is full of disinformation in regards to Taoist monks sweeping outside Shaolin. Maybe Taoists visited the Buddhist temple, maybe they stayed … but to have guests outside sweeping and there the day your mythical figure showed up … bull$hit! 8 Step Mantis groundfighting undeafted in the UFC? … bull$hit. That is not 8 step Mantis to begin with, and that was not undeafeted. Also, the UFC in the 90s is not the UFC of today. And most of all, because I don’t want to take anything away from that young man who fought there (My God, for that alone he has my total respect!) … it has nothing to do with you.

Ok buddy whatever you say…you continue to look foolish dont you realize that? thats not even our website. LMAO

I doubt these words will stir you, and not because of some spiritual center, but because if you acted on them some terrible realities will be brought to light to you and your students. I know you have nothing to prove. You push around imaginary beings all day while doing form and then when that aint enough you’ll beat on your defenseless students. You’re a very honorable champion.

Yes its true I beat up ghosts… booooooooooooo WTF? are you talking about?

But don’t talk to me about respect. You haven’t done anything to earn it. Some combat karate tournaments in the 80s is a far cry from fighting. I know because I was competing in them too … Don Negal, etc., etc.

Im glad for you again good luck with that.

Believe me, I’m not worried about the long reach associated with your weak body, I’m not worried about the skill you have in your mind. If you accept the charity match or to meet me on closer grounds, I’m willing to place $1,000 cash ontop of your $1,000 cash and the winner – the one who can walk over to it – takes it all.

So tell me again why you challenged me then back out? lets have some more of those empty excuses. It’s on the public forum, you challenged me told me you would come this sunday to sunday with a friend
I accepted and you chickend out then used those for excuses???

You threat and challenges are but an empty reach for attention.

What says you Shifu For Life?

Its my avatar. It means once you begin on the road to teach others your job is never done, kinda like responding to your posts:D Have a great day ray…

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Is this You?
http://www.eightstep.com/photokf_a.php

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Yes it is. This is my personal website after leaving the much credited but money hungry ACMAF American Chinese Martial Arts Federation of which I was the HQ in NY that site is 8step.com check it out that is my shrfu However I make no mention of grave sweeping on my site thqwat is why I said your confused…

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Quote from Kung Lek on the training for a fight thread so I dont bother that thread i will post it here for you to read Ray

[B]ok, here’s my spin.

people who make challenges on the internet are vitually always talking out their asses, have a lot of self doubt and nine times point 9 times out of 10 they will back down from tehir challenge when it is responded to with a positive.

Often there will be a fluury of emails and the challenger will often ask that you make concessions to accomodate him even though he has challeneged you. eventually they drop away and are not heard from until they make some other post about totally irrelevant topics.

so, I just doin’t pay much attention to them anymore.

the only times i’ve met guys from internet forums for exchanges and what not it has always been positive and there has never once been one of the challenge type dudes show up at the scheduled meets.

so, you guys that post challenges, you’re full of crap for the most part. Get your act together and justtarin and stoip trelling people what you want them to do . lol

challenge smallenge, if you’re gonna fight just do it and stop boring us with all the drivel about how great your teachers are or about something you did ten years ago or any of that crap. It’s just crap.

spits

I have been impressed with the urgency of doing. Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Being willing is not enough; we must do.
~Leonardo da Vinci~

Men are not born brave, but become so through training and force of discipline.
~vegitius~

Kung Lek Discussion Board
Kung Lek | Kung Fu [/B]

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I can be at your school next Sat., July 1, at 10:00 a.m. I will come alone and bring a video camera and tri-pod.

I can’t make it during the week because of the 7.5 hour drive and all, and I have a jammed thumb from training so this weekend is no good.

But please confirm and send me the adress of your school and confirmation that you will be there at 10:00 a.m. on July 1, alone, ready to fight under the rule set that you sent me. That’s fine.

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Is not challenging banned here?

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Morning Ray, 10:00 am is a little early for me as saturday is my day off i like to sleep in. 1:00 pm would be better, plus if you drive all night what kind of shape would you be in to fight so early after driving 7 hours?

Dont take this lightly dude I am tough Motherfooker and have fought for years on the street on the mat and in the ring. Dont think for a second your going to be able to pull off amature ground techniques LOl especialy after driving all night.
I went rounds with Yoshiki Takahashi world pancrase champion ( check out the masters page under photos) hosted several fighters at my summer camps, and trained for many years with Joel for the UFC.

So perhas you have this flase impression of me or what you think I am but I can assure I dont stop! tap or no tap if you come to my school I’m gonna hurt ya plain and simple.
I will see you at 1 saturday july 1st

I will be there with my students some BJJ guys from down the street and some friends who are laughing at that fact some kid from the internet is driving 7 hours to get humilitated

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Please post the adress of the school you will be at.

Please understand, I’m driving almost 8 hours to you … you can’t go to bed a little early the night before and be there by 10:00 a.m.? I think that’s a little unreasonable, but if you insist on 1:00 p.m. then I’ll just have to wait. But if you can do 10:00 I’d apreciate it.

As far as not respecting the tap let’s be clear on this … is this the direction you want to take this?

Lastly, you keep saying you should be respected as a sifu… I’m coming alone and you’re going to have your students, some local BJJ guys AND some friends… to laugh at me?

This is a long trip for me to drive already. I’m giving you over 60lbs. Do your lineage and yourself a service sifu and be there alone, either at 10:00 a.m. or 1:00 a.m. if you must.

Get back to me.

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Ray this is all you dude, this is your call. YOU challenged ME!

LOL I do go to bed early on fridays but I do like to sleep in on Saturdays my only day to sleep in.
And why should I get up early? this is your challenge.

So let me get this straight your going to work all day friday leave your house at 3:00am in the morning drive 7 hours then fight me? loss then drive back home? and for what? to prove something to yourself? to prove what? didnt you have enough proof when you lost your last amature fight?

This is not that type of fight my friend, its not a sport fight with refferee;s and rounds and all that crap, you cant go around challenging people in thier schools and expect it to have rules and fair play.

the people that want to be there are BJJ guys I train with from the school down the street that love to see fighting, my students who of course would not miss this for the world and some friends who know what type of fighter I am.

I will postpone 2 classes for this fight my 1:30 - 3 and my 3:30 to 5 my school is located at 2811 Elmwood Ave, Buffalo , NY take the 90 west from NYC to the 290 west exit elmwood ave head noth for about 2 miles I am on the left hand side at the corner of woodward and Elmwood ask anyone where it is its the only 8 step school in NY and very well known

As far as not respecting the tap let’s be clear on this … is this the direction you want to take this?

see above

Lastly, you keep saying you should be respected as a sifu… I’m coming alone and you’re going to have your students, some local BJJ guys AND some friends… to laugh at me?

they are not comming to laugh at you Ray but when this started i told them about it.
we cross train twice a week alternating schools, so they laughed and said we gotta see this, becuse thay touched hands with me. I have been in MA for 26 years man I kinda know what I’m doing and you should find out about the person before you make assumptions at least before you challange them and in theri own school? who does this? tradationally this is highly disrepectful as I said you would have to fight my students beofre I would waste my time.. see thier will always the new guy who want to prove his skills, so why should the teacher patronize them?

So there you are your call. If you are comming for sure then let me know, if not also let me know, just dont waste everyones time and stiff… if you decide to drop if from here, it will be dropped and nothing more will be said and i will not post your response and be a man about it however if you stiff… everyone on the forum will know. your call

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Settle on the time already…

I live just around the corner from the school that ED teaches at and I want to see this, heck I may even video tape it and post it on youtube or goole video or something.

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I will be there at 1:00 p.m. next Saturday. See you then.

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chizica,
No disrespect but I have been trying to get you to come to our school for 2 years and you have never shown up!

You are not invited nor welcome sorry…

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Hey I posted on the other silly thread, too. HF

Sounds like a good way to get shot to me, Ray.

I mean, why do people keep challenging on this site. I know we all like to fight, but why don’t you just fight people that want to fight for a living. If someone comes to my house to challenge me, I’ll bust a cap in their a$$ before I ask any questions-and I’ve mellowed in my old age.

Yeah, we train martial arts, but in my area, as I am sure in NY, people don’t really play like that. Fighting is no joke and I’ve seen too many street altercations go bad to go around threatening anybody that hurts my feelings online. Perhaps at one point I was a little crazy, but I was young and have since lost too many friends to glamorize BS like this on an internet forum. And that’s the worst part. Most of the people challenging others are older than me! You sound like children. Are y’all having an early mid life crisis or something?!! WTF.

The Southern forum sounds just as bad right now. Are we babies that quibble over nonsense and cry when we don’t get our way. This used to be a pretty cool board to fuk around at while I was at work. Y’all have turned it into a b!tchy little pi$$ing contest that will never get solved because nobody really wants to fight. Why don’t y’all try to further your art through diplomacy instead of banging your head into the wall?

You want to sport fight, great! That is awesome. I really want to see a CMA trained fighter in the cage. I think that is cool as he!!! I’ll be rooting for you. But you should know as a real fighter that you can’t go into the ring with your head full of emotion or you’ll get beat. CONTROL YOURSELF.

Now, stop b!tching, all of you, and go to work.

WTF…is this like the third fake a$$ challenge match this month or what?

Give it a rest. One of these days, you fukers are going to pick the real wrong guy and wind up with more than just your @ss handed to you.

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response from other thread

"Shirkers,
He said that all us praying mantis guys practice useless forms with no fighting applications what so ever. LOL dear Lord please educate him.

And taji is for old people with bad health problems and you cant fight with it… its too slow… "

Well I really don’t want to get in between you guys and your conflict. But in response to green cloud, I simply say that when it comes to video taping in modern times it has a very useful service and helps dispell the myth or legend that closed door fights seem to have been spread throughout the years.

As for mantis guys and their training. I’m sorry to say that there is a lot of **** out there but there are a few who train well. I for one do forms on my own because well I’m by myself and it’s just a part of training, but when I’m with partners it’s all two man and driven towards fighting. On all levels of conditioning mind you. I feel what I do has worked for me and if my body was 100% I’d be using my style in a pro setting but injuries have taken that away from me. But that’s my story.

So I think as fighters we all should know that styles, etc don’t really mean **** and it boils down to the fighters involved and the style or whatever is just a tool for the fighter to use. So if someone wants to lump a style and say they all suck that’s on them, I think ray stands up for himself and he’s willing to put himself out there and I respect that. Deep down I think he knows that it’s not about the style and more about the individuals and how they use their respected styles.

So in the end I’d like to say that I wish you guys luck in your fight next week, I wish I could be there to see it. I loves me some fights and I would really enjoy seeing this fight. Hopefully you guys resolve your issues respectfully by using what you train.

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LOL @ EarthDragon backpedaling after talking all his previous smack by now trying to convince Ray not to show up.

I doubt EarthDragon is half the fighter Ray is. I’m betting Ray will be there and will get a KO in under two minutes.

Ray may lose sometimes, but he walks the walk.

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ATTN Hard Fist

I agree with you that showing up to someone’s house and attacking them SHOULD lead to you being shot. Also, having someone welcome you into thier home only to ambush you with a room full of people is also a way to welcome someone to seriously hurt or kill you.

We’re not talking about that.

We’re talking about two martial artists who had a fundamental disagreement in regards to training. If you tell me you can be a chess master by reading books and setting up only your pieces and playing against the air … I’ll tell you, you have very bad odds of beating me if I’ve been studying chess by playing with a top master, and then spending my weekend playing speed chess in the park.

Now, we can agree to disagree.

But when I offer to play you and then realise it’s not worth driving 8 hours to play someone who really believes that … and then have that person say I’m not going because I’m scared. Well, if I’m nuts enough to make the drive – which I am – then we must play!

It is that simple. If Earth Dragon wrote me saying, hey, I’m with you, you need to be testing yourself against live resistance, of course you can’t just fight an experienced fighter doing form, this would never have happened. That’s what started it.

Now it has progressed to him placing himself above me, calling me a boy and out of his league. Look, I am calm and in control of my emotions. I had a no rules fight on June 4th. You can go check on Bullshido for yourself. This aint no thing. The hardest part is the drive. I like to fight, I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy the unknown, how the fight will unfold and the positions that arise.

I do admit that he has made this personal though. And I haven’t fought someone that I had ill feelings against but I have plans to in the future. So this is a good experience for me all the way around.

I’m not unreasonable though. If Earth Dragon apoligizes and changes his attitude towards me, I will gladly stay in Long Beach and pray for surf. Either way it’s no big deal.

As for those comments about Mantis and Taiji, I didn’t make them. Those are Earth Dragon’s words, not mine. I train Taiji as part of my E-Chuan training. My old crew of S Mantis only fought, there was no form. Every class full gear fighting with teacher interuptions.

I haven’t put a style in a box after a TKD 3rd dan almost broke my coller bone with a cresent kick … right time, right technique. It worked.

19

Just for the sake of clarification, did i miss something? I didnt read anything that struck me as back pedaling. I am not saying he didn’t but you know how we lose a lot of our intended meaning when we communicate through writing. So i was curious to see how you interpreted something he said differently than i did. My take was that he was being pretty upfront and aggressive with his acceptance of the challenge from ray. Now personally i try to stay out of these types of squabbles unless it is to interject a bit of light heartedness but i had to ask just for clarification.

However, I will say reading all the drama on this board has led me to think of a great idea. A soap opera kung fu show. think about it. it would be like day time trash for men. all those bored house husbands out there watching other men bicker and challenge and travel and fight . man that would be so great. can i get an amen?

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I work my job Thurs, Fri, Sat night and Sunday day.

Every day, almost without a skip, I sit down to drink some very good quality Jasmine tea, eat lunch, and read these boards and was recently thinking it was just like a soap opera. Keep up the good work guys…