[QUOTE=MightyB;1280795]
His philosophy, whether contrived or
[/QUOTE]
“his” philosophy was the borrowed notes from his philosophy classes at college. Things people attribute to him actually come from people like Krishnamurti
his ideas on “combat” are the notes he took from boxer Edwin Haislet, and fencers Hugo and James Castello
His estate lost in court regarding this;
Probably in everyone’s best interest to not get confused by movie fu vs actual fighting.
All film fighting is choreographed. To the smallest move. Especially in large productions. There is nothing improvised really.
In actual fighting, it is the training that reveals the ability of the fighter.
Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters, the points about movie making need to be considered.
Film fighting, in and of itself is interesting. Bruce Lee was integral to the inspirational surge of martial arts practice in North America and Western Europe.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1280799]
Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters
[/QUOTE]
Bruce Lee wanted to be a movie star, that he achieved in spades… he wanted to change the perception of asians in the west, again, major victory…
As for his accomplishments in the martial arts, much of what is attributed to his “genius” were the thoughts of other men, much of what is attributed to his “unique approach” were the approaches of others. To speak of his “fights” is to speak of second and third hand tales, many of which even on the face of them raise questions. A quick examination of available footage and his sparring is weak, the heavy bag clip is just sad…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w
People want to say he was unique for his age; yet in Thailand men with much more skill were actively fighting, the Kyokushinkai was also open to all challenges, Vale Tudo matches were taking place in Brazil and there was the South East Asian Cup. It is WELL KNOWN that Bruce Lee attended one of these when it was in Hong Kong. He “hid” under glasses and a hat and sat in the far back…
I liked Bruce Lee.
He pointed out common sense stuff that was being ignored ( by some) in his time and was instrumental in spreading kung fu to the world.
His MA legacy is people that value practicality over tradition WHEN the two are at odds.
Nothing wrong with that.
In short, I take Bruce Lee for what He was and disregard what he was not.
Much like all improvements and innovations, Lee stood on the shoulders of giants, and applied their knowledge to new materials and came out with fantastic results.
Were his ideas original? No, and Yes. No, as they were not “his” but yes because he applied them to new situations and the application to those situations was “his”. So argue all you want that he took from here and took from there and bla bla bla.
lkfmdc, you take your knowledge from your training in TCMA and apply it to other venues, with successful results. Are your appropriations any different than Lee’s? On a basic level, no, they are not. The only difference between you and him is you don’t have a cult following praising your genius. Get over it. His ideas were sound and innovative for the time and place he implemented them. That’s his “genius”.
So he wasn’t a fighter. He trained champion fighters using his methods derived from his innovations. Kind of like you. You’re not a champion fighter, but your students are.
Was Lee a martial arts god? Absolutely not. Was he instrumental in the spread and love of asian martial arts in the western world, absolutely yes.
I like Bruce Lee. Do I care that he wanted to be a movie star more than anything else and he wasn’t a fighter himself? No, because on his path to achieving his goals, his contributions to the martial arts community were excellent. I’m also not surprised that so many fantastic stories surround the man, and know that generations from now, he will have a mythical quality applied to his legacy, like many before him. It’s human nature, and it’s bound to happen.
I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the “Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter” image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as “The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time”. I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.
A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.
I liked BL and still do. There’s the image his worshippers carry; there’s the image his biggest critics carry; and then there’s simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.
It’s hard to know what Bruce Lee really “thought” or even what he claimed. He died young, and most of his public efforts were towards his ACTING CAREER…
Pretty much all of the Bruce Lee body of work comes through the filter of his estate and his students, both of which had a very vested interest in him…
Whether it was just love for a dear friend they lost, or the fact a guy who was a phys ed and driving teacher became one of the richest men in the world, there is an interest at work
It is a touchy subject even in the so called “JKD world”… where half of them moved on the more progressive training while the other half has fallen into their own “classical mess”
But a few facts are apperent; (1) He wasn’t the super fighter people want you to believe he was. Nor were his skills all that astounding. There were much better, real fighters in his days. His bag clip is sad. (2) Tons of people believe the ideas he stole were indeed his. And the estate backed that falsehood until they were forced to acknowledge it after losing legally (3) The claim that Bruce Lee or his ideas produced anything is hotly debatable. Bruce himself never produced many students. HIs ideas produced a generation (or two) of “Jeet Kune Do people” who have now split into widely divergent camps.
Greetings,
Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.
mickey
[QUOTE=mickey;1280841]Greetings,
Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.
mickey[/QUOTE]
Actually, I believe he very much wanted stardom and celebrity. He did say, he was going to be bigger than McQueen. That caused a falling out with those 2. Yet, McQueen still pallbeared for his friend/instructor.
It’s not really ‘out of the blue’ that BL wanted to be an actor. His father was an actor in Cantonese opera and in movies. So BL was exposed to the performing arts long before he began training martial arts. Lots of actors’ kids want to become actors themselves.
I do believe BL wanted to be a big star. He had written out a list of goals, one of which said he would be a superstar (or millionaire?) by 1980.
Greetings,
There is no evidence that Bruce Lee pursued acting in America before Ed Parker made the connections for him, resulting in a screen test and his being cast in the Green Hornet. McQueen and Coburn were his students; so, there was a competitive aspect, I agree. His desire to provide well for his family was a strong one-- to the point where he had considered opening a chain of martial arts schools. And this was before he went back to Hong Kong. Steve McQueen was a top box office draw at the time. For Bruce Lee to focus on outdoing Steve McQueen was, in my opinion, healthy goal setting.
In “providing well” for his family, it may be that Bruce wanted his family to live with some comfort, like his parents did/tried to do for him.
mickey
lol “prividing for family”
his dad was rich as fuk and his mom was a 1/2 german trophy wife.
bruce lee was a rich boy who bragged publicly about beating up a chinatown restaurant waiter who prolly ate one meal a day
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1280809]I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the “Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter” image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as “The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time”. I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.
A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.
I liked BL and still do. There’s the image his worshippers carry; there’s the image his biggest critics carry; and then there’s simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.[/QUOTE]
I think this claim comes from the following passage from a book:
It’s a second hand source so we don’t know if Bruce Lee ever said this but I always interpreted this as Bruce Lee saying he would lose to Muhammad Ali in a Boxing match (hence “little Chinese hand”).
This quote has been attributed to Bruce Lee:
“To tell the truth, I could beat anybody in the world.”
Now I very much doubt Bruce Lee could beat anyone in his time or in the present but I believe, as he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter. This thread however is about Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms. Where is the evidence for Elms? That’s what I want to know.
[QUOTE=MysticNinjaJay;1280943]
he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter
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It’s the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a “martial artist” has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1280945]It’s the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a “martial artist” has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter[/QUOTE]
Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.
[QUOTE=MysticNinjaJay;1280950]Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.[/QUOTE]
Bruce Lee trained some martial arts. But was more interested in movies. With the popularity of action martial arts films, that is where Bruce Lee made himself.
Nobody will give you credit for things you didn’t do. Whether or not he was on track is irrelevant. The truth is that BL was never a carded fighter and had no interest in pursuing a fight career. He was clearly into making movies and becoming a super star and martial arts was his vehicle towards that. That was his thing.
I don’ t think he cared to compete and with his weight and rules, yeah he would probably lose on that alone never mind if he could or could not do what some say he could. Weight matters.
But you just can’t dismiss by saying he was not as good as people think based on what we have seen which really is very little and again, if we judge by him film movement, I stand my ground that NO ONE has achieved what he had on film. NO ONE. Ive seen faster. Ive seen more gymnastic. I’ve seen all the varied styles and much is very good but they all lack his total package at least captured in that format. And guys that are respect and some as fighters that have stated Bruce was every bit as good as they say he was.
Anyway, JUDO. There was a time it was not under one umbrella. There are still small schools whose linage avoided joining yet they still teach good judo. So, because there was no standardization far enough back, how do we know any of them were any good? There students? Bruce had some rather good guys and they taught some rather good guys. Most never entered into competition. Some just can’t do that. Having boxed, Ive seen plenty show up, get hit and leave never to be seen again. Yet, these same guys have no issues fighting in say a bar or whatever. Some can take the gloves and some cant. Id rather get hit with a glove, less chance I get cut and I cut east enough. Less chance I loose teeth and ive had teeth punched out gloveless.
Less chance I hurt my hands and I have hurt my thumbs barefisted. Always hurt my thumbs. Every time I had to throw more than one punch. Never happened gloved.
There was a few guys I knew that would have beat me dead out of the ring that just could not deal with gloves and rules. Yet, they never fought in any competitions.
Anyway, he is what he is. The most known actor and martial artist ever.
I don’ t think he cared to compete and with his weight and rules, yeah he would probably lose on that alone never mind if he could or could not do what some say he could. Weight matters.
But you just can’t dismiss by saying he was not as good as people think based on what we have seen which really is very little and again, if we judge by him film movement, I stand my ground that NO ONE has achieved what he had on film. NO ONE. Ive seen faster. Ive seen more gymnastic. I’ve seen all the varied styles and much is very good but they all lack his total package at least captured in that format. And guys that are respected and some as fighters, that have stated Bruce was every bit as good as they say he was.
Anyway, JUDO. There was a time it was not under one umbrella. There are still small schools whose linage avoided joining yet they still teach good judo. So, because there was no standardization far enough back, how do we know any of them were any good? Thier students? Bruce had some rather good guys and they taught some rather good guys. Most never entered into competition. Some just can’t do that. Having boxed, Ive seen plenty show up, get hit and leave never to be seen again. Yet, these same guys have no issues fighting in say a bar or whatever. Some can take the gloves and some cant. Id rather get hit with a glove, less chance I get cut and I cut east enough. Less chance I loose teeth and ive had teeth punched out gloveless.
Less chance I hurt my hands and I have hurt my thumbs barefisted. Always hurt my thumbs. Every time I had to throw more than one punch. Never happened gloved.
There was a few guys I knew that would have beat me dead out of the ring that just could not deal with gloves and rules. Yet, they never fought in any competitions.
Anyway, he is what he is. The most known actor and martial artist ever.
And think about this. We are posting on a forum that is primarily Traditional Kung Fu. We have no problems believing the legends that abound with this stuff, often sight on seen. Or Master whoever was the most feared kung fu guy in his time only to to find it was all forms stuff. We’ve all seen that old footage of those 2 Masters that got in the ring to fight and they flat out SUCKED! Yet, here we have on film a guy doing things better than we have yet to see someone else obtain in many ways.
He never fought anyone , he sucked! LOL.
Most fighters after they hang it up. SUCK. They die broke, injured some brain damaged and few remember them unless they were champs. Guess what. 99.9 percent never become champs. They are long forgotten other than maybe being a local hero or terror. And we could say if your local boy never makes to the top, HE SUCKS! Which probably is not true.
One thing I know is BL did not suck. Ive seen it on film. If he lived he would not have died broke. He would have more than likely become the richest actor alive during the 70’s and maybe into the 80’s. Yet if I put him in the ring with even a third rate heavy weight and said only boxing rules, he is dead! So I guess he sucks then? If I put any of you in that ring, I bet you’ll suck too.
Me, Im smart enough to not get in there with a guy that big even if I believe I am the better boxer. I’d be killed. I SUCK!