Boxing & Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
61

[QUOTE=YungChun;999517]
I would be more interested in seeing folks who can apply more of WCK itself, something far more rare and interesting IMO. (And that is my pick btw for the ‘better product’)

IMO most people teaching WCK, um, let me put this kindly, really suk. :o:rolleyes::smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I agree.

So now you have a product (wing chun) that you’ve recognized is for the most part crap. You’ve decided that in order to improve your product, you’re going to show that it is indeed capable of doing what it was built to do (teach someone to fight). In doing so you’re going to have to show the value (the skill of fighting) to the consumer in such a way that makes your product more desireable than the other products (what else are you getting from it besides fighting?). It needs to not only provide them with a solution to their needs, and fit their wants, but it has to do it better than all the other products out there.

So now what? What have you done to achieve this either in yourself or your classmates or your classes (as I don’t know if you are teaching or not)? Other people, based on their own experiences both in the system of wing chun and out are trying to do whatever they can to enhance the usage of the product through additional features (e.g. boxing) or higher levels of training methodology that are more proven to result in a person who can fight (i.e. cardiovascular conditioning, sparring, and etc.).

What are you doing?

62

All WC needs is more cross system sparring and training and it’s “lackings” will take care of themselves, really.
In the past that was done view beimo’s or WTF they were called, but now we have full contact sparring that is available to us and a very open attititude of cross testing that most gyms are ok with and even encourage.

63

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;999683]All WC needs is more cross system sparring and training and it’s “lackings” will take care of themselves, really.
In the past that was done view beimo’s or WTF they were called, but now we have full contact sparring that is available to us and a very open attititude of cross testing that most gyms are ok with and even encourage.[/QUOTE]

I’d agree with that. The days of beimo (where there’s no gear) are what really put WC on the map.

I do prefer to spar without gear on personally, but again, can’t be going to work with a fat lip or cut eyebrow all the time either (see movie “fight club”).

64

[QUOTE=bennyvt;999555]wsl was a boxer. He used to go and fight people that did kung fu as he thought it was a joke. He even beat most of the junior students of yip until yip and some senior guys smashed him. If he wanted boxing mixed in he would have done that.[/QUOTE]

Those sorts of stories are of uncertain significance. Anyway, I don’t think that this tread is about boxing being better than WC, but the idea that boxing techniques can make a nice supplement to WC.

65

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999694]I’d agree with that. The days of beimo (where there’s no gear) are what really put WC on the map.

I do prefer to spar without gear on personally, but again, can’t be going to work with a fat lip or cut eyebrow all the time either (see movie “fight club”).[/QUOTE]

I experimented with the "space helmet’ of the daidojuku guys for a bit and it was great at keeping you pretty but MAN, talk about concussion time !
It seemed that the impact was transferd all around your freaking head !

66

Sparring with no gear is usually a very either/or situation; either the guys shy away from throwing serious headshots or they pummel each other and go away with fat lips, bloody noses, and black eyes…or worse - not cool if you have to go to work the next day.

And the problem with not throwing serious headshots (or serious kicks to the body and legs - remember, we don’t go barefoot)…or serious elbow shots, etc…

is that true realism goes out the window.

Imo, wing chun in general needs constant sparring, ie.- at least once a week that uses gear - but goes pretty close to all out each time.

Why are boxers so good? MMA guys? BJJ guys? Wrestlers?

Because they are constantly going all out - within the parameters of their art.

This is what wing chun needs more of, imo.

67

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;999698]I experimented with the "space helmet’ of the daidojuku guys for a bit and it was great at keeping you pretty but MAN, talk about concussion time !
It seemed that the impact was transferd all around your freaking head ![/QUOTE]

lol. There’s always the motorcycle helmet!

68

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999704]lol. There’s always the motorcycle helmet![/QUOTE]

You just reminded me !
Check this out, a couple of years ago I was at a bar-b que and my brother-in-law’s bother is there, this was before he became a cop.
He always wanted to do MA and their cousin, who does MA, was there too, big fellow who does MMA.
Anyways, we start to chatting and he mentions how all that kung fu **** is crap and of course my BIL is the first to start crap !
In a nutshell, after a few grappling moves ( he wasn’t that good) are exchanged my other BIL mentions how I do IP ( he has seen my workout area) and the MMA guys says how that is a load of BS.
Well, I of course try to explain the science behind it and finish the explanation with a impromptu brick break ( just house brick that was under the deck).
Not good enough and my BIL brother suggests, if you can believe it, me hitting his cousin !
Ok, I explain that, without gear, that is not gonna happen, the cousin leaves and comes back with his motor cycle helmet !
Long story short ( yeah I know, too late), the end result was a cracked helmet and a concussion (probably), LOL !!

69

[QUOTE=Frost;999565]where did i say add boxing to wing chun, you said wing chun had more to it than boxing
i said just because an art has a billion things in it it doesn,t mean its better than an art that only has a few but can really make those things work when it counts… why are you finding this point hard to grasp[/QUOTE]

So you are not for adding WB to WCK?

70

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;999683]All WC needs is more cross system sparring and training and it’s “lackings” will take care of themselves, really.
In the past that was done view beimo’s or WTF they were called, but now we have full contact sparring that is available to us and a very open attititude of cross testing that most gyms are ok with and even encourage.[/QUOTE]

Exactly…

The problem is getting all the better teachers on board with this.. Even better would be to get a few working together and then test and refine in these venues… Chances of that happening…virtually nil..

71

what is IP?

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;999708]You just reminded me !
Check this out, a couple of years ago I was at a bar-b que and my brother-in-law’s bother is there, this was before he became a cop.
He always wanted to do MA and their cousin, who does MA, was there too, big fellow who does MMA.
Anyways, we start to chatting and he mentions how all that kung fu **** is crap and of course my BIL is the first to start crap !
In a nutshell, after a few grappling moves ( he wasn’t that good) are exchanged my other BIL mentions how I do IP ( he has seen my workout area) and the MMA guys says how that is a load of BS.
Well, I of course try to explain the science behind it and finish the explanation with a impromptu brick break ( just house brick that was under the deck).
Not good enough and my BIL brother suggests, if you can believe it, me hitting his cousin !
Ok, I explain that, without gear, that is not gonna happen, the cousin leaves and comes back with his motor cycle helmet !
Long story short ( yeah I know, too late), the end result was a cracked helmet and a concussion (probably), LOL !![/QUOTE]

72

[QUOTE=Pacman;999743]what is IP?[/QUOTE]

Iron Palm.

73

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999678]
So now you have a product (wing chun) that you’ve recognized is for the most part crap.
[/quote]
Well that’s an over generalization..

There are lots of problems with TMA and WCK specifically…that range from how the core classical training is taught to the mentality passed on with it, to the marketing and hype associated with it..

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999678]
You’ve decided that in order to improve your product, you’re going to show that it is indeed capable of doing what it was built to do (teach someone to fight). In doing so you’re going to have to show the value (the skill of fighting) to the consumer in such a way that makes your product more desireable than the other products (what else are you getting from it besides fighting?). It needs to not only provide them with a solution to their needs, and fit their wants, but it has to do it better than all the other products out there.

So now what? What have you done to achieve this either in yourself or your classmates or your classes (as I don’t know if you are teaching or not)?
{snip}
What are you doing?
[/quote]

It’s not about me it’s about the art and those currently passing themselves off as ‘masters.’

I came to WCK to essentially improve my sparring… Once I did that (improved to my satisfaction) my “job” was “done” and I later moved on to some other challenges of life … I continued training for fun until other things took over… Now I train when I can find the time and the bodies..

I used to teach a small group at my house, that group has subsequently broken up to due to folks moving, loosing interest or whatever.. I still see one or two folks now and then and work out etc..

If I had the money I’d open a WCK school that maintains the traditional core elements (plus other modern combative training elements) and then takes off in an NHB direction, that encourages students who have the core down to actually fight…in competition and in class…

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999678]
Other people, based on their own experiences both in the system of wing chun and out are trying to do whatever they can to enhance the usage of the product through additional features (e.g. boxing) or higher levels of training methodology that are more proven to result in a person who can fight (i.e. cardiovascular conditioning, sparring, and etc.).
[/quote]

Are they? Show me all those folks who are fighting in NHB with their Chun to test and refine..

Most don’t.. Most schools don’t… They only add hype or add marketing or do BS seminars about the “secret” or “new take” on the <name your WCK component> for hundreds of dollars per session.. Instead of the focus being on performance, the real focus is on money, publicity and foo foo fake fighting..

But then again, most folks are training “WC Do” not WCK…

74

[QUOTE=YungChun;999869]Well that’s an over generalization..

There are lots of problems with TMA and WCK specifically…that range from how the core classical training is taught to the mentality passed on with it, to the marketing and hype associated with it..[/quote]
See? Not very nice when someone takes something you’ve said and over generalizes it, is it? But yeah, I know what you mean. Just making a point to take statements as they are said–not what you think they are trying to say.

[QUOTE=YungChun;999869]
It’s not about me it’s about the art and those currently passing themselves off as ‘masters.’[/quote]
I’m with ya on that one!! I was talking to my current sifu and he was telling me about all the intentions of several of those masters, that all along they wanted nothing more than “wing chun empires”. Sort of sad isn’t it?

[QUOTE=YungChun;999869]
I came to WCK to essentially improve my sparring… Once I did that (improved to my satisfaction) my “job” was “done” and I later moved on to some other challenges of life … I continued training for fun until other things took over… Now I train when I can find the time and the bodies..

I used to teach a small group at my house, that group has subsequently broken up to due to folks moving, loosing interest or whatever.. I still see one or two folks now and then and work out etc..

If I had the money I’d open a WCK school that maintains the traditional core elements (plus other modern combative training elements) and then takes off in an NHB direction, that encourages students who have the core down to actually fight…in competition and in class…[/quote]
And I’m with ya on this part too. It’s all too often that training partners fall by the wayside. Today with the UFC hype you either find a guy that doesn’t have the mental capacity to learn real gung fu, or you’ve got people who physically flake out. It’s hard to find someone who is right both mentally and physically.

[QUOTE=YungChun;999869]
Are they? Show me all those folks who are fighting in NHB with their Chun to test and refine..

Most don’t.. Most schools don’t… They only add hype or add marketing or do BS seminars about the “secret” or “new take” on the <name your WCK component> for hundreds of dollars per session.. Instead of the focus being on performance, the real focus is on money, publicity and foo foo fake fighting..

But then again, most folks are training “WC Do” not WCK…[/QUOTE]
You don’t have to fight in the UFC / WEC / Affliction and etc’ to see if your stuff works. You only have to train in as realistic manner as possible. That’s like saying in order to know you’re a good boxer you have to fight pro…and that’s simply not the case. Now you’re right that most people don’t do this, but I know that Victor does…and I know that Redmond does as well. I do and it seems that you do. So there are a number of people who train with the right type of pressure testing in their day-to-day activities.

75

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999876]
See? Not very nice when someone takes something you’ve said and over generalizes it, is it? But yeah, I know what you mean. Just making a point to take statements as they are said–not what you think they are trying to say.
[/quote]
So you’re saying you wrote this to teach me ‘a lesson’??

I normally quote that to which I respond and respond to that quote..

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999876]
You don’t have to fight in the UFC / WEC / Affliction and etc’ to see if your stuff works. You only have to train in as realistic manner as possible.
[/quote]
“As realistic as possible” means absolutely nothing… (see–taking this as you said it)

Fighting in established competitive venues says much more about ‘where you are’..

[QUOTE=Vankuen;999876]
I was talking to my current sifu and he was telling me about all the intentions of several of those masters, that all along they wanted nothing more than “wing chun empires”.
[/QUOTE]
Who is your Sifu?

76

totally agree with the sparing. The wsl story was because you said he would add boxing. I was saying he learnt boxing first them went to vt. But with the bike helmet. We tried to do take down defences with them. And didnt bleed but i couldn’t move my neck the next day.

77

Originally posted this on an MMA forum thread…

…on this website, but I think it fits well on this thread also, so I’ll restate it. It was a response to a Vankuen post - so here’s both…
…

Originally Posted by Vankuen
"However, the idea that the style doesn’t work because of the gloves and because it doesn’t allow for maiming techniques doesn’t really float in my opinion either. Even with those rules and minimal padding there is 95% of the system left over–all of the punches, all of the kicks, all of the bridgework, clinching, chin na, and etc.–and if the majority of people can’t make the majority of the system work for them, then there’s definitely something amiss.

But what?

Sure, we could say that the reason we don’t see it is because everyone that practices wing chun today simply don’t have the desire to prove themselves in that type of environment. Or that the ones that have tried it failed because of individual deficiences.

But if it is the style itself…what about the style is causing it not to be successful?
If it’s not the style, is it the training? Could it be simply that more rigorous training that is necessary?"
…

***AS SOMEONE who’s been doing wing chun for 35 years…(and I’ve added some boxing/kickboxing and catch wrestling into my game over the last 7-8 years)…I think Van’s post needs to be addressed.

I’ve come to believe that there are several reasons why wing chun has not made it in mma so far…and why, even without mma venues, the style has - for the most part - been on the downside of general martial art opinions/reputations for some time now:

  1. The training methods have traditionally been lacking in realism due to the idea (myth) that it’s simply bareknuckled brawling that will not work with gloves and rules…so the substitute is lots of chi sao, drills, wooden dummy, forms, etc…with the occasional “gor sau” (bareknuckled sparring) in some schools (but it would seem not that many schools)…because it’s deemed “too dangerous”.

This is a bad formula, to say the least.

  1. Many wing chun instructors (themselves) don’t want to spar with lots of contact including headshots (I recommend gear to be used)…and therefore they don’t encourage their students to do so (or hardly ever). They’re hiding their deficiencies in this manner - while collecting nice fees for classes, uniforms, private lessons, seminars, videos, etc. So the monetary factor has, in many instances, held the style back. If your instructor can’t really fight - he doesn’t want you to know that. Period.

  2. Some instructors are more interested in having new schools open within their lineage/family than in the quality of the instructors they’ve authorized to teach.

Another bad formula, to say the least.

  1. An unwillingness to look at the limitations of the system, regardless of what wing chun lineage you’ve studied. And while I firmly believe that some wing chun systems offer more than others (and I’ll not go into detail because it’s not important)…nonetheless…all wing chun systems have their limitations.

It’s a close quarter infight that does not, imo, cover enough long range standup, has some limitations at close quarters that could benefit from some boxing hooks, uppercuts, blocking, etc…has very little-to-no clinch game (although some wing chun systems teach some nice close quarter elbow and knee strikes)…just rudimentary anti-takedown techniques (although this is an area that could be exploited nicely - and some wing chun systems/people use some good moves in this regard) - and no real groundgame.

But the aggressiveness of the wing chun close quarter striking style and the contact reflex training at close quarters can really bring a lot to the table in terms of relentless striking attacks, speed, close quarter angling, and the manipulation/control of the opponents limbs and his balance.

SO THERE SOME PEOPLE DOING SOME REAL GOOD THINGS IN A COMPETITIVE ATMOSPHERE WITH THEIR WING CHUN.

Because they are training realistically with pads, bags, footwork, etc…and lots of sparring…and working against people skilled in other arts.

And other wing chun people who’ve taken the next step and have also crosstrained in other systems.

Now here’s the irony: wing chun is an effective “street” style because if its emphasis on close quarter striking - a must for effective street combat, imo. But without the proper training, constant hard sparring against skilled opponents, and proper attitude about other styles - the potential “effectiveness” of the style remains largely unfulfilled.