Blast From the Past

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;940565]“Cheung is nobody special. He’s just another WCK instructor. A dime a dozen.” (Terence)

***YOU SEE what I mean, Phil?

This guy would never say such a thing directly to the face of one of William Cheung’s students. Never in a million years. :eek:

Don’t waste your time with him. :cool:[/QUOTE]

That’s really funny. It is so schoolyard (showing your mental age) and TCMA-comic book at the same time! “You have insulted my sifu and the Shaolin Temple.”

You need to get over your Cheung worship. Grow up. Be an adult.

42

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:rolleyes:

43

T-Niehoff

T_Niehoff said:

Chi gerk, like chi sao, is a learning platform, a way for a trainee to learn in an unrealistic environment, certain skills. With regard to chi gerk, it is to learn the leg/footwork skills you need when on the inside, close to an opponent. Robert listed many of these things in his post.

While chi sao and chi gerk teach certain skills, you need to take those skills and put them into a realistic environment to hone them into realistic skills.

So do think its important to practice Chi Sao and Chi Gerk in addition to realistic fighting and sparring with those skills???

44

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;940547] It was one of the few directly applicable things I managed to take from wing chun into MMA training..[/QUOTE]

Which MMA facility do you train at? And which MMA events have you fought in?

45

:rolleyes:

I just spent the best part a day answering in detail what people have been asking about chi gerk because I know that it’s not so common even in WC circles, and that’s the one thing that you seize on? Do you have any problems with the logic of what I’ve written? Any part of the explanations you want clarifying? Any disagreements with my comparisons to the harai goshi drills etc? Don’t let’s be a Kansuke about this… one is entertaining but two of you pithy mofos would be more than I could handle…

Kaminari Dojo, Tokyo, now defunct, for about 18 months. Teacher was Ryan Bow, ex middleweight Pacific Rim Shooto champion.

Before then, mostly with Ryan but also with a couple of guys from Purebred Gym, Omiya, and the gym’s own trainers, at Yokohama Shooto Gym… probably about a year.

Competitions: none… got seriously injured training for the licence to enter Deep (still receiving physio and rehabbing the injury - after four years or so, so looking less and less likely I’m getting into even semi-pro anytime soon).

I’ve written all this before, mostly in response to YOU, so do me a ****ing favour and remember this time.

46

You’ll have to save it on file and do a cut 'n paste job. Saves on all the typing.

47

I’ve written all this before, mostly in response to YOU, so do me a ****ing favour and remember this time.
You’ll have to save it on file and do a cut 'n paste job. Saves on all the typing.

48

I just spent the best part a day answering in detail what people have been asking about chi gerk because I know that it’s not so common even in WC circles, and that’s the one thing that you seize on? Do you have any problems with the logic of what I’ve written? Any part of the explanations you want clarifying? Any disagreements with my comparisons to the harai goshi drills etc? Don’t let’s be a Kansuke about this… one is entertaining but two of you pithy mofos would be more than I could handle…

Kaminari Dojo, Tokyo, now defunct, for about 18 months. Teacher was Ryan Bow, ex middleweight Pacific Rim Shooto champion.

Before then, mostly with Ryan but also with a couple of guys from Purebred Gym, Omiya, and the gym’s own trainers, at Yokohama Shooto Gym… probably about a year.

Competitions: none… got seriously injured training for the licence to enter Deep (still receiving physio and rehabbing the injury - after four years or so, so looking less and less likely I’m getting into even semi-pro anytime soon).

I’ve written all this before, mostly in response to YOU, so do me a ****ing favour and remember this time.[/QUOTE]

Thanks… I knew you had trained, but I forgot where. What are you doing training-wise now?

49

No reason to clog the board up with it, and besides, you can see on my blog thread, though I don’t update it very often at all.

PMed. By all means post anything you think relevant to this thread from the PM.

50

Now here’s a very clear example of what I mean when I’ve talked about how one needs a long range delivery system to get to wing chun “range”…because without one…

what the kickboxer guy in this vid did to the wing chun guy is a very common ocurrence. The kickboxer almost completely controlled/dominated this little sparring session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7iLZ-BEgqo&feature=related

51

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;940604]
So do think its important to practice Chi Sao and Chi Gerk in addition to realistic fighting and sparring with those skills???[/QUOTE]

As I have said, chi sao and chi gerk are unrealistic exercises/platforms to teach certain contact skills. You don’t need to learn the skills that way. In fact, it is a rather poor way to learn them.

52

Victor,

Do you really consider the fighter in that clip a fair example of wing chun fighting?

I see no footwork, little movement, no structure, no use of body among other things. I would guess he has spent very little time learning how to fight outside of his school.

53

[QUOTE=hunt1;940738]Victor,

Do you really consider the fighter in that clip a fair example of wing chun fighting?

I see no footwork, little movement, no structure, no use of body among other things. I would guess he has spent very little time learning how to fight outside of his school.[/QUOTE]

Please post a vid of you doing better.

54

Hunter,

I wouldn’t say that he’s very good, no.

But my point on this subject is this: without longer range punches and kicks (wherein you clearly have a lead leg and a lead arm) - and you’re throwing horizontal (not vertical) punches with some extended shoulder work - like boxers do…

…along with some longer range kicks (similar to what the kickboxer was doing in that vid)…

you’re gonna have serious problems getting to the place where you can square up your shoulders and go to double-fisted/double-armed work on your centerline - especially when you’re up against guys with good boxing/kickboxing skills.

55

COMING BACK TO THIS NOW:

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
Clearly just pure nonsense in terms of how to use pak/cheun - as without coming into your opponent to take his space away - the whole concept of pak, or chuen, or the two together is meaningless. I understand it’s just a drill - but it’s missing a very important element (eating up his space).

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LBHY...eature=related

…

And duende’s response to that was:

[QUOTE=duende;940536]Agreed. There is no Chum Kiu element to the pak sao in the vid’s. No control or influence on the opponent’s COG.

This is “slapping Hands” taken waaaay too literally.[/QUOTE]

***NOW HERE’S a good example of how to take the opponent’s space away with pak sao/cheun sao - in a real fighting/sparring application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbGfWIDFuA&feature=related

56

Vic,

Look at your last 2 posts, I seea contradiction.
With that last vid of Keith, wouldn’t you say this is a good way to close the distance with a boxer? Looks like he bridging from an outside striking range and getting into the ‘squared up, equal reach’ range you are talking about (WC range).

Is so, why do you need to box a boxer with his own tools to bridge this gap if WC has the tools aready?

Having boxed prior to learning WC, I disagree with you that you need to box/kickbox a boxer from outside ranges to close the gap. WC already does ahve the tools to do this, as keith’s vid points out.

No digs here, just looking for your input.

Jonathan

57

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;940786]Is so, why do you need to box a boxer with his own tools to bridge this gap if WC has the tools aready?[/QUOTE]
Only one problem. That clip shows nothing. There is no sparring. There is no boxing. All that clip shows is a demo of how it is “supposed” to be done… and it is done against a non-resisting, non-boxing opponent.

58

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;940786]Vic,

Look at your last 2 posts, I seea contradiction.
With that last vid of Keith, wouldn’t you say this is a good way to close the distance with a boxer? Looks like he bridging from an outside striking range and getting into the ‘squared up, equal reach’ range you are talking about (WC range).

Is so, why do you need to box a boxer with his own tools to bridge this gap if WC has the tools aready?

Having boxed prior to learning WC, I disagree with you that you need to box/kickbox a boxer from outside ranges to close the gap. WC already does ahve the tools to do this, as keith’s vid points out.

No digs here, just looking for your input.

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

***THANKS for this post, because it provides an opportunity to examine in detail when it’s crucial, imo, to use some boxing, and when it’s not.

First of all, go back and take a look at Keith against the second guy in the vid. Notice the serious difference in reach, due to the size discrepancy between the two men.

Assuming that you’re good with the pak/chuen move, and you understand the timing, and so forth - it’s really not that difficult to do what Keith did when the arm reach (and of course, the height advantage) is what it is. (It also doesn’t hurt that Keith outweighed the guy by about 80 lbs…LOL).

Now suppose that the guy Keith was working with was at least as tall as Keith (if not taller)…do you think that Keith would have been able to get so deep into the man’s space on the jab that Keith decided to go in on?

Just like that?

I don’t think so.

Not I’m not taking anything away from Keith’s skills or from the whole concept behind the pak/chuen…but my point is that against a bigger man than seen in the vid I believe a longer range delivery system would be needed to get that deep into the man’s space - and do it without eating punches and kicks on the way in.

59

Terence, I used a Chinese term since we do a Chinese martial art. But I understood the concept of honor from the Corps. In the Corps if you had a disagreement with someone you would tell them to their face and go from there. Trash talkers were ostracized. It has nothing to do with him being my Sifu. Wm. Cheung was there for me in some personal issues not related to kung fu. If you and I were close I’d speak on your behalf as well if you weren’t there to speak for yourself.
What separates you and me is that I never write anything online that I wouldn’t say to some one’s face :wink:

60

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;940549] . . . . .Look, I have no doubt he had some fights as a teenager. We’ve all seen the rooftop fights and the level of the competition. While it’s true he and some others fought, that experience hardly proves that he was some great fighter. . . . .[/QUOTE]
Actually Duncan Leung told me of the times when William Cheung would fight for the Chinese people when some Aussie guys would start trouble. He even writes about that in his book. I even have an Aussie news paper article with still pics of him fighting a guy in Australia. My point is that unlike you are saying he has had street fights as an adult. I’ve even seen people try to sneak him during seminars. Not too many WC Sifu have had actual fight experience. But I’m wasting my time with you. I’d really love to see you do something on video. Even if it’s just to explain something. I doubt that’ll ever happen though.