blacktsun- Your misperception of BJJ

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Street/Reality Fighting
21

Laughing Tiger:
The reason that BJJ has so many techniques that are unique to it only is because it is just about the only style where two guys spend 95% of their time rolling around on the floor. The thousands of Chinese masters that you refer to spent the majority of their time developing standing, throwing and/or joint locking techniques, but didnÂ’t spend 95% ot their time rolling around on the ground. When you spend the majority of time doing something that most other people donÂ’t do much of, if at all, it stands to reason that you will develop things that are unique to that only. I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours, learning thousands of techniques from the different ground positions that most people would not even recognize, let alone understand, unless they had the same or more ground specific training.

For you guys to say that you know the same techniques is just ludicrous. It would be just as ludicrous for me to say I have seen all the techniques in monkey kung fu when I have not studied it. Unless you have spent hours upon hours with a person laying on top of you from the side, or with one leg wrapped inside the other, or with his feet in opposite directions as your, or sitting out towards your head, or sitting out towards your feet, or straddling your torso, or with you legs around his torso, you cannot even begin to imagine the variety of subtle techniques that are used from these positions. And that is only from the bottom. There are just as many techniques if not more that are done from the top position. And then there is with the gi or without the gi, not to mention pure submission grappling or Vale Tudo. This is why, unless you have extensive ground grappling training, I can pretty much guarantee that I can show anyone many, many techniques that he has never seen before.

22

Just out of curiousity, what about traditional jiu jitsu? What are the differences between them. Maybe that will help understand the differances between bjj and kung fu

Hey, it’s worth a try.

23

My friend studies a form of traditional jiu jutsu, and he told me it was all about controlling your opponent, until you can kill him with a technique.

Methods of control and killing include off balancing, throwing, nerve point striking, choking, breaking of neck, back, fingers, arms, legs, heck, just about any bone you can name, dislocation, gouging of eyes, crushing of testicles/eyeballs, stamping on feet/body/head, striking in various ways, using weapons in close quarter combat and grappling situations (a favourite he showed me, he threw me, and on my way down, i felt something cold run across the front of my neck. It was the back of a tanto he’d concealed, which I didn’t even know he had on him, if it was the other way round, I’d have been dead before I hit the ground)

They learn flexible, bladed and clubbing weapons, throwing weapons, and improvised weapons. (I ended up being strangled with my own belt in one of our harder sparring sessions. Being foolhardy, I didn’t tap out, just continued, kicking and thrashing, but he revived me afterwards…)

The art centres around disabling the person, then killing them as quickly as possible. Alot of set ups include kicking the nuts, clawing/crushing the nuts/eyes, and other brutal techniques.

Advanced techniques teach controlling the opponent without doing too much damage!

Hope that helps,
Shenden

(Now all we need is someone with a good descrition of BJJ, and we’re set!)

24

Knifefighter, I completely agree with your last post. I think the place where our opinions differ is that (I may be wrong) the BJJ guys I see on the net talk as if geting to the point of having the opponent on the ground is just a given. I don’t think they have ever really encountered someone who knows kung fu, I mean the real thing, not one of these combined new age seudo-arts. I think all of those past masters encountered guys trying to talk them down, and found it not so difficult to deal with. And this is the opinion of any serious practitioner I have ever met.
I also think that if one is able to (or somehow lucky enough to) close range on you, enter, grab and throw or bring you to the ground somehow, maneuver…your kung fu is very poor. Period.
I also agree with you that, once on the ground, well…superior ground skills are necessary…goes without saying.
A while ago, I rented some UFC videos with Royce in them. The two things I saw was…firstly, none of the techniques that would stop him from a takedown would be allowed..and secondly, of course he is amazingly smart and resourceful on the ground. Even though I disagree with you on getting to the ground, I am enjoying reading your posts :slight_smile:

25

kung fu i dont like you or you attitudelalalalalalalalalalalalaalalalalaalalalalalalaalalalalalaalalalaal you no fight you not fighter i fight you.valetudo

26

laughing tiger:

I don’t think that most quality bjj practicioners pretend that getting to the ground is a given…It is mostly just these trolls like Reality.

If you go over to Mousels, you will see that there are a lot of posters with respect for a lot of different arts. Most quality martial artists respect other arts, and I don’t think bjj is any different in this regard.

I agree that preventing someone from taking you to the ground shouldn’t be that difficult, and I think it would be even easier against a lot of these UFC-wannabe newbies who have no appreciation for what they don’t know.

But stopping a groundfighter who has a lot of experience against stand up artists from eventually taking a fight to the grond would, IMO, be very difficult.

27

I agree with laughing tiger, BJJ has done well against peeps who dont know kung fu, a GOOD kung fu person would destroy someone trying to do takedowns like royce does easy. They wont close the distance enough without getting hurt BAD or killed, otherwise your kung fu is just poor.

28

I think you guys are underestimating how smart and resourceful a guy like Royce can be on his feet.

29

Whoa there, reality check time.
Just because you get taken down doesn’t mean that your kung fu is poor. It certainly doesn’t mean that you are a poor stand up fighter.

Someone earlier mentioned Igor, but lets also think about Maurice Smith. These are two guys who are on top of the world as far as striking skills go. And they have both done very well in no holds barred competition. Both of them show the same basic technique against a takedown attempt. That is, a solid rear hand strait punch to the temple and jaw. Smith was nothing less than amazing in the UFC. Strikers all around the world looked to his fights as a validation of the striking arts. Later, Igor proved again that a strong hitter could rule grapplers.

HOWEVER,
as good as both men are, they still get taken down. (Look at the last pride for Igor, although his was a great fight.) Smith didn’t become the UFC champion untill he trained with Frank Shamrock and learned some.. some what, GRAPPLING SKILLS.

Here in the really real world any fighter can be taken down. The best proffessional strikers in the world get taken down. What does that say about you, or me? It says that you can be a very good martial artist and still get your back on the mat.

Of course, I’m sure many of you will argue that Maurice Smith is nothing compared to a real kung fu master. In the wake of such a well informed and thought out argument, I can have no retort.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

30

I think someone here once pointed out, a ground fighter needs only to be successful once to take you down, while a striker must be successful everytime in preventing the groundfighter from taking him down, and still has to beat the ground fighter to boot. Many of you are talking as if a shoot is child’s play to stop and it really isn’t. I don’t think the majority of you have ever even sparred against a average submission fighter, whether it is BJJ, Shooto, or a wrestler etc. If you want to be a multi-dimensional fighter, it is a given that you need to learn the ground game, at the very least don’t discount it. I have to agree with Knifefighter, once a submission fighter has someone with little to no real ground fighting experience on the ground the fight is pretty much going to be one sided and the concludsion a given. Some of you also forget that in a streetfight, you are going to be lucky if the BJJ fighter is going to stop and let you go after you tap, odds are and if it were me at the very least I’d choke you out or bust a arm or shoulder to make sure the fight is out of you. A striker without the ground game is pretty much the same thing as a ground fighter without a striking game, one dimensional and limited.-ED

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 07-24-2000).]

31

He is terrible on his feet!

32

REAL Kung Fu has never been in the UFC. I have sparred bjj peeps and made them look foolish. I remember reading a while back someone here defeated 3 of them from the Gracie academy! I’m sure there are others here who have sparred bjj people before, am I right? Did they take you down easily? If so you definitely need to work on your Kung Fu. Simple.

33

Of course real Kung Fu has never been allowed in the UFC! The gracies stood to lose too much money if they were beaten! Just look at the Pride Grand Prix 2000, Royce Gracie had his a** handed to him on a plate by Kazushi Sakuraba!
As a side note regarding Kung Fu being “ineffective” against BJJ, the Chin Na techniques in Kung Fu could easily take out a BJJ fighter on the ground, if the kung fu guy knows how to apply it properly. I’ve seen a jiu-jitsu fighter in demonstration get his nose broken by a Kenpo guy, before they even hit the mat. The only thing this BJJ hype has done, is allow teachers of other styles to incorporate new techniques (or those which have been there for ages) into their curriculum that will allow BJJ to be defeated!

34

It’s like playing cards with my brother’s kids.

JWT

35

Hmmm…there seems to be a them vs. us attitude with some around here. I really do not understand why some people choose to blind themselves to the need of developing an area that until BJJ came to the lime light was pretty much neglected for the most part in this country and most of the world. I suggest trying it for yourself first, then make your judgements.-ED

P.S.-I know what you mean JWT. I give up.

“The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground…take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up…keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere…be ready and able to go everywhere.”-a mix martial artist

[This message has been edited by GinSueDog (edited 07-24-2000).]

36

OK, I can’t believe I’m responding to one of these threads, but here goes. If you are a striker, and you do not train to both avoid takedowns AND protect yourself if taken down, you have left a gigantic opening in your personal style that may well lead to defeat. On the other hand, if you are a grappler, and do not train for both effective striking, and closing against a qiuck and powerfull puncher, then YOU, my friend, have left a gigantic opening in your personal style, that may well lead to defeat. The six month BJJ vs striker example can be valid, if the striker has no ground experience. But I have seen strikers, with 6 months training and a High School wrestling background, give some fairly skilled BJJ fighters all they could handle. As for me, I train in both striking and grappling, and anything else that looks like fun. If you prefer one over the other, great for you! but keep n mind, it is a personal preference, not the edict of the Lord.

edit those spelling errors, heh, heh.

[This message has been edited by SW (edited 07-24-2000).]

37

So where are all of these awesome Kung Fu masters hiding out?

38

Its really not so simple to get someone on the ground as you think if they are skilled at kung fu. When I sparred some grapplers before I saw so many chances to hurt them really bad, openings everywhere, but we were just doing friendly sparring so I didnt. Maybe you guys should try taking down a real Kung Fu master then YOU will understand.

39

Any good Kung Fu masters in the Los Angeles area that I might try taking down?

40

I woudnt recommend it, you might wind up blind, maimed or dead. Not worth it.