Originally posted by Liokault
[B]
:rolleyes:
A well thought through argument there. [/B]
a statement like the one you mad doesn’t require too much thought. basically, don’t EVER assume anything, or you’ll get your ass handed to you. remember that when you cross hands with someone who tells you they train bjj. most likely, that say that because it’s what they spend most of their time on. What they won’t say, is “I cross train in [enter style here]”
So you disagreeseven star?
Do you not in BJJ spend the majority of your time on ground fighting?
Or have you found a way to fight a group of guys from the ground?
or have you found a revelutionary way to train stand up that lets you spend very little time on it and still be efective?
Theres no point telling me im wrong unless you have an argument.
since you asked… we spend alot of time doing standup as we recognize that we need good take downs. Takedowns can and have been used in multiple attacker situations. The biggest mistake people make is doing what you did - assuming that we want to fight from the ground. knowing how to go to the ground gives me the knowledge to know how to get back up. knowing how to steal your center gives me the knowledge of how to keep mine. And, in any event, what if most of a bjj guys time is spent on the ground, and he he has to fight, oh, let’s say, you. once you are taken down, what do you do? since we do standup throwing, I know very well how to throw. From prior MA training, I know very well how to strike. I use that to get you where I want you.
The three elements to a fight, from an SC and judo perspective are
grappling will do fine getting a bjj guy to a clinch, where he can then off balance and throw. once you are thrown, screw going to the ground. the next objective is to get away.
any more questions?
I still wanna know - in a streetfight, after you’ve taken the other guy down and you’re still up…
WHAT ARE YOU HANGING AROUND FOR? CHEESE IT!
exactly. You win a bacon sammich
Re: BJJ self defense
Originally posted by SevenStar
for all those that still think bjj guys intentionally try to take a streetfight to the ground, check out “BJJ Self Defense Techniques” there are over 100 self defense techs with color photos and pretty detailed explanations. out of all of the techs, only about 5 involve both parties going to the ground, and in two of those, the victim was already on the ground. the techs look like chin na and judo. it’s a pretty good read - check it out.
Sev’ I’ve mentioned this fact several times onhis forum. When you train privates at Gracie Torrance the initial emphasis is on these simple striking and grappling techs. They are the “kata” or Ippon kumite of GJJ. Ippon kumite being self-defense or one step (or 2 or 3 step) sparring techs.
The regular classes don’t focus on the self-defense as much, but these are the techs that Helio wanted to emphasize for non-sport GJJ training. Later, bro.
Btw, how was the Royce seminar? Did ya’ll do any of the techs you are talking about?
Self-defense tricks!
Sorry but Self-defenses drillls could they be from the Gracies or the countless books on the subject,the self-defenses tricks they teach at the end of karate classes,the count Dante books,the easy and fast way to become an expert killer,Charles Atlas courses!..You get the idea!..Are all the same to me. …Easy $$$$$$$$$$$.
I respect BJJ as a system of it’s own that does’nt (Like any serious MA) needs these memorised tricks so easy to forget when the time comes to use them!
But,they sell lots of tapes I heard!:rolleyes:
Most of the BJJ “self-defense” stuff is crap. Why? Because, unlike all the rest of the system, it is not sparred at 100% against a resisting opponent.
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B]The three elements to a fight, from an SC and judo perspective are
grappling will do fine getting a bjj guy to a clinch, where he can then off balance and throw. once you are thrown, screw going to the ground. the next objective is to get away.
[/B]
i have to disagree with this, sevenstar. in shuai chiao the initial contact is a hit, which is the off balancing. not a clinch and then off balance. i might just be nitpicking the way you worded it though.
Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?
Assumption is silly. Just like assuming tai chi strikes can end fights. It’s possible but it’s best to go for the overkill. Yes…throws can end fights. Yes striking can end fights. Your argument about BJJ being non street effective is correct if a BJJ guy just works on the SPORT BJJ which IS PREDOMINANTLY taught! But if the BJJ guy trains the VALE TUDO BJJ which is basic white belt BJJ added with striking then he’s good to go for one on one real fights. Regarding multiple attackers…the training there is based on tactical stragedy. It is general thinking for both strikers and grapplers to follow the same REAL FIGHT FRAMEWORK.
Can someone please explain why we are still debating this topic? :rolleyes:
Honestly, it’s simple:
Can we move on now? Please!
Originally posted by Liokault
Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?
No, we’re not assuming that. Are you assuming your taiji will? That really wasn’t part of the argument. you asked about standup training.
Neptune, stop nitpicking dude! Read a thread that’s worth looking at, not this one. 
100%?
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Most of the BJJ “self-defense” stuff is crap. Why? Because, unlike all the rest of the system, it is not sparred at 100% against a resisting opponent.
Even groundfighting as taught in practically every system of BJJ is not done 100%. I’m speaking of the techs utilized versus the energy spent. Nothing is really ever 100% anyway, there are no absolutes and completely controllable scenarios on the street.
Pro Football players rarely practice in full pads at full speed. Still when it comes time for the game, they are usually well prepared and able to execute. Training in GJJ self-defense is quite analogous (or kata or prearranged drills etc.). Helio understands the fact that simple gross motor movements and standing controls and locks can set up your sweeps, throws and ground submissions.
If you train GJJ and dis this aspect of it, then you are ignoring the foundation of Helio’s system. Competition brings glory, but often the competition “way” or option is not the “way” in reality. At least the self-defense gives you some easy-to-accomplish options. Only go to the ground if you are 100% sure. Then again there are no absolutes… So where does that leave you?
Originally posted by Liokault
Are we assumeing that throws end fights now?
as assumptions go, that’s not a bad one
as assumptions go, that’s not a bad one
Belive me it is a bad one!!
number one/ 90 percent of throws are not going to finish your oponent off.
number two/ If your counting on kicking the guy when he is down (to finish him) then you are in most cases in a worse position than he is. I know i have been on the floor with guys trying to kick me on more occasions than i care to remember.
number three/ if you are fighting more than one guy (again back to this flaw in BJJ) you may not have time to try to kick your oponent on the floor…and if he just gets back up then what did you gain?
Am i the only guy here who has had someone try to do a judo throw on him in the street?
Re: 100%?
Originally posted by omegapoint
[B]
Even groundfighting as taught in practically every system of BJJ is not done 100%. I’m speaking of the techs utilized versus the energy spent. Nothing is really ever 100% anyway, there are no absolutes and completely controllable scenarios on the street.
If you train GJJ and dis this aspect of it, then you are ignoring the foundation of Helio’s system. Competition brings glory, but often the competition “way” or option is not the “way” in reality. At least the self-defense gives you some easy-to-accomplish options. Only go to the ground if you are 100% sure. Then again there are no absolutes… So where does that leave you? [/B]
Every BJJ practitioner worth his salt spars at almost every training session. Most of these sparring sessions, if not 100%, are pretty close to it.
As far as these “self-defense” katas, I stand by my original statement. They are relatively useless for learning combative skills. What separates BJJ from your standard McDojo junk martial art is the fact that the techniques (with the exception of the “self-defense” techs) are performed in almost the exact way in which they will be used. You know what will work and what will not work with the ground and takedown techniques of BJJ because you have done them hundreds or thousands of times against someone who is trying not to let you do them. Not so, with the kata junk. These are practiced solely against compliant partners, so you never know what will work and what will not. The real “self-defense” techniques of BJJ are the throws, takedowns, and groundwork that is trained and sparred.
Pro football players do many drills at full speed and do quite a bit of scrimmaging. Add this to all the games they have played throughout their football lives and they have an ocean of experience in using their skills in the actual situations for which they were designed. This is totally different from the BJJ Mc Self-Defense program in which 99% of all practitioners have never used these techniques in an even halfway realistic manner.
BTW, almost all of Helio’s and Carlos’ system and most of their fighting careers were based on competition. The laboratory for BJJ has mainly been on the mats and in the ring.
Five words:
Takedown to Knee on Belly.
Solves all the awful problems everbody who doesn’t know what they are talking about seem to associate with groundfighting in a street fight context.
Originally posted by Liokault
[B]
Belive me it is a bad one!!
number one/ 90 percent of throws are not going to finish your oponent off.
number two/ If your counting on kicking the guy when he is down (to finish him) then you are in most cases in a worse position than he is. I know i have been on the floor with guys trying to kick me on more occasions than i care to remember.
number three/ if you are fighting more than one guy (again back to this flaw in BJJ) you may not have time to try to kick your oponent on the floor…and if he just gets back up then what did you gain?
Am i the only guy here who has had someone try to do a judo throw on him in the street? [/B]
I agree that not every throw will finish an opponent. However, I know that you are in no position to say that 90% of throws in the street won’t end a fight. you have nothing to base it on. Maybe 90% of YOUR throws haven’t worked, which could be a personal training issue. In any event though, I agree that there is no guarantee that a throw will end a fight.
fuck kicking the guy while he’s down. If he’s down, you have time to get away.
if you are fighting multiple opponents, your goal is to get out alive. If one guy is down, you may have an opening to run in the direction that the downed man is no longer covering. when you see that opening, RUN. considering that most bjj has judo throws incorporated, what you stated as a flaw really is no flaw. the flaw is in the person training, or the person he’s training under.
It’s true what MP says. Dropping a knee onto a the gut or sternum of a guy face up on the ground is going to take a lot of the fight out of him right there. Or at least it did when it happened to me when I was oh…six or so. It’s one of the standard shuai chiao finish after the throw techs, too, and one that we don’t train live in my wussed out experience. But then, who wants to walk away from every class with internal bleeding and shattered ribs?