Benefits of Horse Stance Training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
41

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1189226]Sorry Ironfist, but YOU are going to have to provide the science.
lol[/quote]

I already did, in post 4.

I think that your attempt to diminish teh value of this training is weird.

as said, you do wall squats? why? what’s the point of those, they just make your wall squat better.

I never said I do wall squats. Wall squats are just about as useless as horse stance. The only difference is wrestlers don’t look at wall squatting as if it were the holy grail of fitness.

Of course you get better at it if you practice, that applies to EVERYTHING.
Of course it works your will because it is difficult and muscles are being worked.
Yes it develops strength early on and maintains it throughout your training.

Seriously, sometimes you talk out of your ass in favour of dang semantics. It’s ridicuous.

Bottom line is you will improve balance, strength and rooting and it will work your posterior chain including your hip flexors the same was as squats work em. You don’t think you go up and down in horse?

You young bucks always so quick to try to get people to turn away from stuff you don’t do. YOu get critical about things you have really no place criticizing. Why not try it for a year, come back and tell us what you know about sei ping dai ma after that?

How does it improve balance?

Strength? Only as explained in post 4.

Rooting is nonsense as explained in the previous post.

Who’s turning anyone away? As stated, I trained horse stance daily years ago. I finally realized I was wasting my time, though, because it wasn’t taking me to where I wanted to go.

If your goal is to do TCMA techniques, or be able to hold a horse stance for a long time, then by all means, train horse stance.

If your goal is to kick harder, be stronger, or have more endurance for fighting, horse stance is not going to get you there (past the first minute or two of holding it).

I know this is sacrilege to some of you guys. Not trying to offend.

I did Iron Body and Stone Warrior every day a little over a decade ago. I was so hardcore about it and would tell people how weightlifting was bad and made you slow and all the other TMA crap I had been fed. I also thought MMA was stupid and grappling could be defeated with knees and iron palm strikes to the head.

A day in my university’s gym set me on the path that would eventually clear up my strength training misconceptions.

30 seconds of sparring at an MMA gym cleared up my misconceptions about TCMA, grappling, and resisting opponents (but that’s another topic for another thread).

But if all you’ve ever been told is the same old TCMA nonsense from your sifu for years, those beliefs can be pretty ingrained. Fortunately for me, I’m pretty scientific-minded and was able to get the blinders off pretty quickly.

If what you’re doing is working for you, then keep doing it. My goal was to get stronger, to hit harder, and to have more endurance for fighting. Horse stance training was not meeting my needs, and with all the stuff I was doing I was doing it for 30+ minutes per day. I could hold it for a long time, but I wasn’t strong.

At best, I was marginally stronger than someone my size who didn’t work out, but that was that. I weighed like 150 and could bench press 115 for a rep or two and could squat 95 pounds for a rep or two, after years of horse stance nonsense, dynamic tension sets (which at the time I believed were the bees knees, secret strength training from the ancients, all that type of stuff), pushups, etc. Indeed, I wasn’t very strong.

I got stronger in my first month of weight training than I was from years of doing all the other stuff.

Sure, I’ve lost the ability to hold a horse stance for a while, but I don’t care, because that was never useful in the first place. I don’t fight from a horse stance. I don’t do anything from a horse stance. Static contractions for time don’t make you stronger. It’s pointless after a minute or so for the reasons explained in post 4.

I have used it from time to time just to break up the monotony, or as part of rehab, or if I’m traveling and don’t have access to a gym and am bored and think “I wonder if I can hold a horse stance for 90 seconds still,” but that’s about it.

I know I’m wasting my breath, but this was a fun post to type regardless.

42

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1189225]Very true, YET the vast majority of posts in this thread and, lets be honest, the majority of horse stance training is static.[/QUOTE]

That is true, but i do disagree about most horse training being static. let me elaborate. When I first started cma my sifu would have us hold horse for sure, starting small then increasing time as is usual for many cma. Keep in mind my sifu was also raised/trained in a temple invironment, where horse is used for many reasons. During our ‘testing’ depending on time in you would be required to hold horse for 30-45 minutes, and reach your max (or close to max) sit ups and push ups before doing your forms and techniques, fighting was last when you were exhausted against people there soley for the sparring who were completely fresh. holding a horse for that long does exhaust your legs, especially if you dont do that time frame regularly, which honestly i never did even though i could reach those limits my legs were shot. So doing all your form and technique, after crapping out your legs and then after all of that sparring fresh people back to back, is a valuable lesson in itself as to how to fight when you have absolutely nothing left. Its pure will to continue at that point. Can you get exhausted another way? sure. I experienced the same thing in judo without the horse stance training. In judo we hold a wide sumo style horse stance for a few minutes but thats all.

but we also did several different types of squats. Regular squats, jumping squats, horse jumping (you get in horse and hop forward and up as best you can without leaving the horse position) and we would also work our way up to one leg squats.

I am one of those people that view the whole thing as horse stance training. static, dynamic, squats, jumping, etc. its all horse stance training. While i do not fight from a low horse stance, there are indeed times that i have used a horse stance during fighting, especially in judo, over and over again. Do i view horse stance as some super duper mystical ‘holy grail’ as it was put, no lol. I dont live in extremes, I’m a pretty balanced person in many ways, I dont see it as the end all, or even that special other than all the variations of it that are used constantly, but I dont out right dismiss it.

Every wrestler does ‘horse stance training’ whether they like it or not. Most dont do static training but all do squats. what do you think the action of a squat is. Dont get caught up in a name guys…a squat is just a dynamic use of the ‘horse stance’ call it what you want, i call it horse, and i can if i want, because it is. most people just hear the name horse and start frothing at the mouth because they cant get past an attachment they have created for themselves.

43

Somewhere along the lines this became an either/or thing when it really isn’t.
Even in the olden days ( LOL) fighters did Both static stance training and dynamic and also did progressive resistance training.
There was no reason to choose one over the other since they both ( stance specific training and resistance training) were valuable.

We’ve all done stance training, you can’t go through MA without doing it and those that have also done progressive resistance training KNOW that you can’t compare the two but guess what? you don’t have to nor should you, BOTH have their benefits.

44

[QUOTE=Lucas;1189244]That is true, but i do disagree about most horse training being static. let me elaborate. When I first started cma my sifu would have us hold horse for sure, starting small then increasing time as is usual for many cma. Keep in mind my sifu was also raised/trained in a temple invironment, where horse is used for many reasons. During our ‘testing’ depending on time in you would be required to hold horse for 30-45 minutes, and reach your max (or close to max) sit ups and push ups before doing your forms and techniques, fighting was last when you were exhausted against people there soley for the sparring who were completely fresh. holding a horse for that long does exhaust your legs, especially if you dont do that time frame regularly, which honestly i never did even though i could reach those limits my legs were shot. So doing all your form and technique, after crapping out your legs and then after all of that sparring fresh people back to back, is a valuable lesson in itself as to how to fight when you have absolutely nothing left. Its pure will to continue at that point. Can you get exhausted another way? sure. I experienced the same thing in judo without the horse stance training. In judo we hold a wide sumo style horse stance for a few minutes but thats all.

but we also did several different types of squats. Regular squats, jumping squats, horse jumping (you get in horse and hop forward and up as best you can without leaving the horse position) and we would also work our way up to one leg squats.

I am one of those people that view the whole thing as horse stance training. static, dynamic, squats, jumping, etc. its all horse stance training. While i do not fight from a low horse stance, there are indeed times that i have used a horse stance during fighting, especially in judo, over and over again. Do i view horse stance as some super duper mystical ‘holy grail’ as it was put, no lol. I dont live in extremes, I’m a pretty balanced person in many ways, I dont see it as the end all, or even that special other than all the variations of it that are used constantly, but I dont out right dismiss it.

Every wrestler does ‘horse stance training’ whether they like it or not. Most dont do static training but all do squats. what do you think the action of a squat is. Dont get caught up in a name guys…a squat is just a dynamic use of the ‘horse stance’ call it what you want, i call it horse, and i can if i want, because it is. most people just hear the name horse and start frothing at the mouth because they cant get past an attachment they have created for themselves.[/QUOTE]

Of course, YET, and you know this is true, when people think and talk about horse stance training they think STATIC ie: holding the horse stance.
You don’t hear people asking, within the context of horse stance training, how many BW squats you can do but how long you can hold your horse stance.

45

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1189249]Of course, YET, and you know this is true, when people think and talk about horse stance training they think STATIC ie: holding the horse stance.
You don’t hear people asking, within the context of horse stance training, how many BW squats you can do but how long you can hold your horse stance.[/QUOTE]

lol i know you’re right… :mad:

its frustrating…the first thing i will tell someone when asked ‘what can i do to get a better horse stance?’ i tell them squats. you know, besides getting to the point that you can also do a proper horse stance. but squats help with that tremendously

46

IronFist:

Quantify “basic leg strength.” What is it?

#1. Basic leg strength is just as I stated… basic. Like I said if you want to do more or go beyond this… do squats or leg press etc…

What? No it doesn’t.

#2. When you sit is a low horse stance you will feel your ligaments / tendons in your hips pull and stretch. Doh… what? you never sat in a horse stance and felt your hips stretching?

Rooting is nonsense. “Allowing blood and body fluids to sink?” They’re only sinking because you’re lowering yourself and they’re physically getting lower as a result. In real life, when your blood and body fluids sink, it’s a medical emergency and you have to go to the hospital.

#3. I am truly sorry you do not understand gravity… try this this to help explain: Raise your arms straight up above your head and point them to the sky. Hold them there for a minute or 2. Quickly lower them down and you will actually feel your blood flowing back down into your arms. This is because blood and body fluids can move thru your body because gravity forces it downward. Gravity plays a role in your blood / fluids and how they flow in your body. as you learn to relax (in your stance) blood vessels will relax and open up, allowing blood to flow where ever gravity will take it.

Granted… aerteies are trying to carry expired blood back to the heart. You can still lower your center of gravity without bending your knees or lowering your body…by blood dropping making your center mass lower. Anyone can do this, there is no secret, just horse stance training.

I suppose, but you never use those techniques in an actual fight so it really doesn’t matter.

#4. We had a discussion here before… Horse stance is used and they even had a video clip of some mma guy hittin a horse and punching the opponent while in it, so don’t gimmie that crap that it is not used in reality.

Nonense. The only way you get stronger “at the expense of skill and technique” is if you stop practicing skill and technique.

#5. If spend more time in the gym lifting than do in the kwoon practicing drills and sparring, then you are a meathead and you are trying to replace skill with strength.

All supplemental training is good. However TCMA has reasons for Horse stance as stated in my earlier post. If you want to do other things like lifting weights… just don’t forsake your meat and potatoes like sparring / drills etc.

ginosifu

47

[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1189175]Besides…it helped my skiing.[/QUOTE]

After my wife took her 1st ski lesson, she still didn’t know how to slow down and stop. I assume the parallel turning is not that easy for beginner. After I taught her WC YGKYM (snow plow), she had no problem on the green. If snow plow is the only skill that you have, you had better to make your horse stance strong.

48

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1189252]After my wife took her 1st ski lesson, she still didn’t know how to slow down and stop. I assume the parallel turning is not that easy for beginner. After I taught her WC YGKYM (snow plow), she had no problem on the green. If snow plow is the only skill that you have, you had better to make your horse stance strong.[/QUOTE]

Or learn to ski :wink:

49

Stance training was more helpful than any other exercise in opening the hips for working side splits. This for someone who started gongfu at 28 after years of running/weightlifting without any kind of flexibility training.

50

If you go to China 30 years ago, you may have problem to go to bathroom without strong horse stance. People who said that horse stance is not important, that person may never take a dump in the woods.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1189253]Or learn to ski ;)[/QUOTE]

The 1st time I went to ski was in Cooper Mountain, CO. Without any ski experience (I thought my TCMA experience should be enough), I immediately got on the triple black diamonds “Widowmaker” slop (more life insurance were ever collected on that trail than others). After I barely made down, I took my 1st ski lesson right way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THBh7KlmM48

51

Ironfist, your experience is your own.

You are starting to do the brash chest pounding crap now, so, chill.
You may very well like what you like, But I don’t count you as qualified to speak in depth about what TCMA does or doesn’t offer.

your experience with it, in it is limited. You have obviously jumped ship and so, don’t even bother learning it anymore it would seem, but you take time to make criticism of it’s methods.

That’s cool. It’s your stuff. Hang onto it. I don’t share that view with you and find your view to only be an attempt at trying to diminish. And your post 4 did not scientifically explain anything. You seem to have cherry picked 1 line from the article I provided.

Just odd man. Why do you hate TCMA so much anyway? We are likely to all go train some Horse stance today. You disapprove, oh well. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

52

[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1189194]Fighting, wrestling etc…is conducted from a bent legged posture. So while you are fighting, you are ‘holding that angle for a period of time’.[/QUOTE]

and you never stand static in those stances, you move sideways, you raise and lower, which you are not doing in the horse stance so again, its not sports specific

53

Can we just finish this discussion with this picture?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=how+to+take+a+dump+in+the+woods&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=684&tbm=isch&tbnid=P61g0iz6zr28OM:&imgrefurl=http://aprilandmillie.tumblr.com/page/2&docid=QpMaeA5E7kO57M&imgurl=http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/p480x480/431230_10150597073070432_709525431_9515235_93693520_n.jpg&w=720&h=480&ei=emtjUJ6AHunbyAHTo4GwAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=532&vpy=362&dur=268&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=174&ty=109&sig=108076583744000753461&page=3&tbnh=148&tbnw=202&start=41&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:41,i:211

or this?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kataguruma.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/koshiguruma.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uranage.htm

54

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1189213]IronFist and all whom do not believe that Horse (or any static stance training) stance has value in MA:

You guys are only thinking with horse blinders on. You can only see straight ahead and what your modern science can prove. You need to step back and take your blinders off.

Horse stance gives basic leg strength. For you modern guys, if you want more… do squats, sit on a leg press / bench etc etc.

Horse stance provides some flexibilty. Again if you want more… do other stretches.

Horse stance does provide some balance and more important ROOTING. Rooting is the ability to sink and lower your weight mass. Horse stance practice allows you to learn how to relax while stress in on your legs, thus allowing blood and body fluids to sink.

Horse stance builds good mental focus… However it was used to weed out people with bad character. Only those individuals who persisted with Horse stance were taken in as Todai or students. Those who had the guts, stubborness, and mental fortitude would go on to learn.

Hundreds of years ago while practicing… there some people who did not have weights (other than some rocks or stone locks) to use, so kung fu teachers used static stances and Dynamic or isometric tensions to help build strength.

Horse stance also teaches a type of structural postioning for certain techniques.

This is not to say that we as a modern society do not have other methods to build strength, however too many of you meatheads replace important kung fu drills with weight lifting. Getting stronger is good but not at the expense of skill and technique.

Remember that Horse stance training is just like running or push ups or hitting the heavy bags. They are all supplimental training and are second to solo and 2 person drills and sparring.

ginosifu[/QUOTE]

so at one point in your post you acknowledge weights are useful and ancient teachers didnt have access to them so had to use stances (the implication being if they did have weights they would have used them) then call those of us who are simply saying the above implicitly and not just hinting at it, that we are stupid meatheads (oh and thanks for that nice way of lumping those of us who have done both TCMA and modern weight training and studied both seriously in such a stupid group)
And you are right they are supplemental exercises which should not take time away your main training: so if one method is superior, quicker and better at producing your desired end goal (getting stronger) why not switch to it?

55

[QUOTE=Frost;1189262]so at one point in your post you acknowledge weights are useful and ancient teachers didnt have access to them so had to use stances (the implication being if they did have weights they would have used them) then call those of us who are simply saying the above implicitly and not just hinting at it, that we are stupid meatheads (oh and thanks for that nice way of lumping those of us who have done both TCMA and modern weight training and studied both seriously in such a stupid group)
And you are right they are supplemental exercises which should not take time away your main training: so if one method is superior, quicker and better at producing your desired end goal (getting stronger) why not switch to it?[/QUOTE]

Because clearly th horse stance gives you teh ultim@t3 d34dly pow3rz even though it’s inferior to weight training.

56

Here ya go…

Horse stance = static exercise. squats=dynamic exercise . squat jump = ballistic exercise.:)…or a leg press on a machine could also = ballistic

You have to train all three to optimize your results.:eek: static, dynamic and ballistic exercises.

Anyone that thinks there isnt any transferable skills acquired by doing horse stance or that there isn’t anything to be gained by using it needs to get a clue. And if not, feel free to keep training like you are from the last century or so.:rolleyes:

It is part of the integrated training approach that everyone is using in the personal training/ health/ fitness fields .

Its the reason why all these professional sport figures are getting so good. They have found that having a scientific understanding , rational and methods to train increases performance and minimizes injury.

works along the lines of training smarter and not harder. you can only train so hard to get results , eventually control and injury become a factor…

57

Man…the snarky in this forum is thick.

So…to conclude:

If you are too lazy to train and an MMA kid defeats you, then stances are worthless.

Got it.

58

Maybe if a CMA guy beats up Ironfist, he’ll come back to us…

:slight_smile:

59

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;1189267]Horse stance = static exercise. squats=dynamic exercise . squat jump = ballistic exercise.:)…or a leg press on a machine could also = ballistic

You have to train all three to optimize your results.:eek: static, dynamic and ballistic exercises.

Anyone that thinks there isnt any transferable skills acquired by doing horse stance or that there isn’t anything to be gained by using it needs to get a clue. And if not, feel free to keep training like you are from the last century or so.:rolleyes:

It is part of the integrated training approach that everyone is using in the personal training/ health/ fitness fields .

Its the reason why all these professional sport figures are getting so good. They have found that having a scientific understanding , rational and methods to train increases performance and minimizes injury.

works along the lines of training smarter and not harder. you can only train so hard to get results , eventually control and injury become a factor…[/QUOTE]

You don’t need a static hold unless you’re very weak and even then it’s only to build strength to get you to dynamic.

Others have argued that there is a dynamic component to horse stance training and again the modern weight lifting beats it out.

THAT is the current training methodology of PTs and pro fighters. You will never find a pro mma or muay Thai fighter doing static holds. It’s squats, squats, and weighted squats.

60

[QUOTE=Bacon;1189271]You don’t need a static hold unless you’re very weak and even then it’s only to build strength to get you to dynamic.

Others have argued that there is a dynamic component to horse stance training and again the modern weight lifting beats it out.

THAT is the current training methodology of PTs and pro fighters. You will never find a pro mma or muay Thai fighter doing static holds. It’s squats, squats, and weighted squats.[/QUOTE] Current and active PFT:)… in all phases of training you can benefit from static exercises/ stretches.

once again part of the modern view and methodology used by all current trainers in the field.

Of course it is needed less as you progress, however it is still needed and benefited from… you need all three to optimize results.

if people aren’t using it then they are missing out on a major training component in all phases of training.

Never would?? huh! I think you would be surprised in the ways MMA and the pros are training now a days.

Come to think of it, most of the UFC champs are all MMA guys with a BB/ solid foundation in traditional arts, many of them probably have done/ do a great deal of stance/ horse training. static, dynamic and ballistic. :smiley: