stance training since you ask

lets just ask Frost and Ironfist how much time they’ve spent training sei ping dai mah and what they feel has come of it for them? Oh wait, they don’t train it, they are here to criticize TCMA methods alone, posture that their methods are superior and in order to meet that agenda they attempt to diminish the methods of TCMA.

Since this was directed at me before the thread was closed ill answer, because i think its important we all know where we are all coming from and our respective experiences.

10 years doing stance training three times a week in class under the current master of the family style i trained before moving to MMA, one day a week helping teach a class and every morning at home to war up, also did stamping, stance sets and other methonds. and a few years under my current CLF and hung gar sifu.

Now i have also trained with 6 commonwealth powerlifting champions, 1 world record holder and competed in a few powerlifting competitions. Ive also spent a decade training out of a pro MMA gym where several strength and conditioning coaches also trained.

So thats my experience in TCMA, strength training and training with pros, Over to everyone else , what’s your strength background, who have you trained with and where have you completed?

My current sifu has been a hung gar sifu of some 30 years standing (and who is also two generations removed from grandmaster CLC of bak mei) squats in his rugby club twice a week and teaches stances as part of the sets but doesnt overemphasize them.

So what did i get from stance training? some leg strength mainly static in nature, some flexibility, good mental focus, but personally i get better results from powerlifting, OL lifting, dynamic and static strengthing and would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

Anyone else care to chip in?

Well, I don’t recall a day when I didn’t do stance training, LOL !
While it was never part of boxing or MT and I don’t recall ever doing static stance training in Judo, wrestling or BJJ, It was a main stable in Kyokushin, TKD and Kung fu of course.
In kyokushin the core was horse and sanchin, same in the other karate systems.
In TKD it was horse stance
In the TCMA it was 90% horse and 10% bow.
I don’t recall one day that I didn’t do stance training in TCMA, sure it wasn’t always static and most of it was whiel doing strikes and blocks and such, but we were in a horse stance for a good, oh…15-20 each day.

[QUOTE=Frost;1190116]would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

Anyone else care to chip in?[/QUOTE]

Agree!

  • Running is better than walking.

  • Walking is better than standing.

  • Standing is better than sitting.

  • Sitting is better than laying down.

  • Laying down is better than dead.

  • To use “hip throw” to throw your opponent over your head is better than to perform hip throw solo drill.

  • To perform 250 hip throw solo drills non-stop is better than to stay in horse stance for 10 minutes.

  • To stand in horse stance is better than to sit on couch and watching TV.

Same investment in time, different reward in combat ability.

Over to everyone else , what’s your strength background, who have you trained with and where have you completed?

Well, trained in a few gyms with national level olympic and powerlifters and in some with “worlds strongest man” trainees.
Also trained with a few high level bodybuilders.
Got the required certification to be a certified trainers years ago.
Been doing and studying weight training since '89.
Have done pretty much every method of ST.
Have read and studied more strengthen building and athletic performance books than I care to remember.

So what did i get from stance training? some leg strength mainly static in nature, some flexibility, good mental focus, but personally i get better results from powerlifting, OL lifting, dynamic and static strengthing and would rather spend class times sparring than doing stances.

The one thing that I liked about static stance training -holding a stance in the most demanding position possible for as long as possible, was being able to overcome the pain that goes with lactic acid build up in the muscles.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1190127]Well, trained in a few gyms with national level olympic and powerlifters and in some with “worlds strongest man” trainees.
Also trained with a few high level bodybuilders.
Got the required certification to be a certified trainers years ago.
Been doing and studying weight training since '89.
Have done pretty much every method of ST.
Have read and studied more strengthen building and athletic performance books than I care to remember.
.[/QUOTE]
Nothing less than what i expect from you, your views are informed and well balanced so its only natural you have had a wide variety of sound experiences, you dont normally have to ask these questions because its easy to tell peoples experiences from how they right…but sometimes its good to ask :slight_smile:

overcoming that pain is a good thing, i get it these days from endless rounds of shark tank grappling (fresh man starts on the top of you over and over) and other sparring drills, but the mental strength stance work builds should not be over looked

The only time I ever knock a training exercise or routine is if I tried it and got ZERO from it.
When I mean try it I mean for at least 8 weeks consistently.
More if it is a “slow progress” regime like the Iron Skills.
You gotta be open minded BUT you also have to be honest with yourself and the results you see.
Or lack there of.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1190135]The only time I ever knock a training exercise or routine is if I tried it and got ZERO from it.
When I mean try it I mean for at least 8 weeks consistently.
More if it is a “slow progress” regime like the Iron Skills.
You gotta be open minded BUT you also have to be honest with yourself and the results you see.
Or lack there of.[/QUOTE]

I’ll knock it when there’s a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.

[QUOTE=Bacon;1190145]I’ll knock it when there’s a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.[/QUOTE]

Sure, but then you wouldn’t be doing kung fu, would you?

No matter what training that you do, it has to do with “combat”. You can spend the same amount of your training time in swimming or bicycling. Since running is more direct to combat, even swimming is better for joints and bicycling is better for your knee, you should still select running over the others.

[QUOTE=Bacon;1190145]I’ll knock it when there’s a clearly better way of doing whatever the exercise purports to do. As far as building strength, endurance, lactic acid clearing efficiency, mental toughness, and pain tolerance, there are vastly superior methods for doing each of these.[/QUOTE]

What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I’d be open to trying it.

[QUOTE=Empty_Cup;1190156]What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I’d be open to trying it.[/QUOTE]
May be you should look at from the angle of “what kind of training can enhance your combat skill?” If you have choices to either lift a weight bar or a throwing dummy. Which way do you prefer? Both will make you strong but to lift a “throwing dummy”, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/get_your_press_up;jsessionid=C989D8F0801AC86F4EEB8AB07DA26779-mcd02.hydra

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4PPST_enUS398US398&biw=1344&bih=715&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=czOAhJIv_RmdgM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wcwusa.com/wrestling-products/wrestling-dummies/&docid=U24_T-iNVLPRHM&imgurl=http://img.youtube.com/vi/en1-qOCTbb8/0.jpg&w=480&h=360&ei=6XVrUMCUJObgigLZm4DABQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=362&vpy=269&dur=1427&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=166&ty=105&sig=113604076333596552026&page=1&tbnh=157&tbnw=209&start=0&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:118

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1190149]Sure, but then you wouldn’t be doing kung fu, would you?[/QUOTE]

Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.

[QUOTE=Empty_Cup;1190156]What kind of modern methods are best for muscle endurance and lactic acid efficiency? Not trolling, actually curious. If there is a better method than sitting in a horse/bow stance, I’d be open to trying it.[/QUOTE]

Low weight high volume endurance training. Distance running/biking for one. A really good one is Hindu squats because you’re continuously moving and using the spring of the hamstrings at the bottom like in a barbell squat. When you can do several hundred in a row your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.

But really anything where you’re dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.

[QUOTE=Bacon;1190183]Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.

Low weight high volume endurance training. Distance running/biking for one. A really good one is Hindu squats because you’re continuously moving and using the spring of the hamstrings at the bottom like in a barbell squat. When you can do several hundred in a row your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.

But really anything where you’re dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.[/QUOTE]

What’s a Hindu squat?

A traditional Indian training exercise for wrestling, along with Hindu press-ups (like a dive-bomb push up), and other things like rope-climbing, running, flipping your body over on your head, and heavy weight swinging.

[QUOTE=Bacon;1190183]Actually I would. Wing chun has some very useful things to add to my arsenal and has a very good method of progressive training for them when done properly.

.[/QUOTE]

You said “wing chun”.
Now no one will ever take you seriously, ever !
:wink:

[QUOTE=Sima Rong;1190194]A traditional Indian training exercise for wrestling, along with Hindu press-ups (like a dive-bomb push up), and other things like rope-climbing, running, flipping your body over on your head, and heavy weight swinging.[/QUOTE]

Oh, guess I should have just Youtubed them in the first place :o

We also practice Hindu squats and Hindu pushups every class for warmup, although until now I had never heard them called Hindu anything. The only difference is that for the HIndu pushup I like to reverse back to the starting position the same way I went down. i.e. like shimmying under a fence and then coming back under the fence.

[QUOTE=Bacon;1190183]your legs will have a pretty good ability to clear lactic acid.[/QUOTE]

Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0

http://phys.org/news64680736.html

[QUOTE=wenshu;1190223]Since you are so fond of name checking Teh Science maybe you ought to know that the myth that lactic acid is a waste product was debunked about 40 years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/health/nutrition/16run.html?_r=0

http://phys.org/news64680736.html[/QUOTE]

He didn’t mention that lactic acid is a “waste product”.
He said that:

But really anything where you’re dynamically doing something with a lower weight but higher reps will increase the efficiency of the muscle in use of oxygen and clearing lactic acid, hence more endurance. So lot of lunges, squats, etc.

Which is correct according to your article that states:

Training helps people get rid of the lactic acid before it can build to the point where it causes muscle fatigue, and at the cellular level, Brooks said, training means growing the mitochondria in muscle cells. The mitochondria - often called the powerhouse of the cell - is where lactate is burned for energy.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp

The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:

“The world’s best athletes stay competitive by interval training,” Brooks said, referring to repeated short, but intense, bouts of exercise. “The intense exercise generates big lactate loads, and the body adapts by building up mitochondria to clear lactic acid quickly. If you use it up, it doesn’t accumulate.”

Read more at: http://phys.org/news64680736.html#jCp

BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
doing something with a lower weight but higher reps

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1190229]
The only difference was that the article advocates interval training as opposed to steady pace endurance:

BUT I am not sure that bacon was advocating steady pace when he said:
doing something with a lower weight but higher reps[/QUOTE]

Actually sometimes it’s good to do a mix. For example if you do hill sprints and at the end your legs still have some spring in them but your lungs are dying you can take a short break and do a ton of Hindu squats however you choose (sets to Paiute, pyramid, etc.) so you can work the legs more.
Also for some exercises many people will not have enough strength to do high intensity intervals (ex. pull ups) so reducing the weight by placing a box under for the feet and then doing a few sets to failure will help.

Yep, I agree.