Hi everyone. This is my first post, and I was hoping some of you might be able to help me with the following situation; I study kung fu under a guy who studies kung fu under a guy who is a certified shaolin monk. We do a lot of stuff that requires very good endurance in the legs with a lot of very deep stances.
I asked my teacher “how do you recommend training horse stance?”
He said “train five times a week until failure.”
I said “what kind of failure? The kind where I give up from the pain or the kind where I fall over because my muscles no longer function?”
He said “the second one.”
I expressed my disappointment with his answer.
He said “I think at your level that should be around ten minutes.”
I expressed my disappointment more forcefully.
The reason I find his answer extremely upsetting is that my horse stance record is about 2 minutes, before I give up from pain (yes, I’m a wimp). Just thinking of continuing for another eight minutes makes me want to cry (a big wimp). He told me to ignore the pain. It’s simply mind over matter. Here are my questions:
Is training horse stance more a matter of training your leg muscles, or training your mind to ignore the pain?
Will working on meditation help with the mind over matter stuff? If so, what should I be thinking about during meditation? Counting breaths, emptying my mind, focusing on my center?
Got any tips for ignoring the searing pain in my legs as I try to hold horse stance?
I also happen to think my instructor knows what he’s talking about. He has a very good horse stance, and he says his sifu makes him try to hold horse stance for up to 30 minutes. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks.
Hopefully you can push the mental boundaries right along with the physical ones. Training and continued effort in both areas will be necessary.
BTW, you won’t actually fall over if you reach muscular failure holding a horse. You’ll just sink past parallel and not be able to stay up. More like a slow descent.
Meditation? Try it while holding the horse. That’s the only kind of meditation that will help you.
Will working on meditation help with the mind over matter stuff? If so, what should I be thinking about during meditation? Counting breaths, emptying my mind, focusing on my center?
Got any tips for ignoring the searing pain in my legs as I try to hold horse stance?
I can’t really help you with 1), but meditation could help if you can do it while you are in horse stance.
And what I try and do is just breathe. Sit in the stance and breathe. Use deep breaths to ‘cleanse’ the pain. It sounds stupid, but it actually helps me some. The more focused I am on my breath the less I notice the pain.
That’s your only block right there. You quit before you’re really ready, I know I used to have this same problem. You’ve just got to figure out what it is that will get you past it.
Here’s a trick I don’t necessarily recommend but it worked for me. For deep stance type stuff, I used to work in front of the television. I’d stand in front of the TV or put in a movie and do it then. Whenever the pain stated to get bad I’d concentrate on what was going on in front of me.
Eventually I got away from that but it was a crutch I used to get up to where I wanted to be doing it comfortably, from there it’s just a matter of will.
Meditation that forces you to overcome discomfort is a big one. Just holding an empty mind and allowing yourself to stay relaxed and breathing normally while in horse should do the trick. I just started a zazen exercise wherein you don’t allow yourself to blink for ten minutes, but stay relaxed and empty. It was extremly difficult but it only took a week to be able to consistently do it. I attribute the quick success to weight training and martial arts practices that strengthen the will (such as horse stance training). For most people it’s supposed to take a few months to work up to just ten minutes of the “no-blinking-zazen”. I just did thirty yesterday.
Anyway, you could try both standing for thirty minutes, and not blinking for thirty minutes (just kidding). In reality, whenever someone tells me something like, “You should stand in horse for thirty minutes.” I usually try to surpass that. I think it’s a necessary mindset. Just dedicate yourself to increasing the time by fifteen seconds ever standing period (use a timer), and in 3 months you’ll be standing for thirty minutes at a time, assuming you practice four days per week.
The key is to make an ambitious but realistic goal, then take baby steps to achieve it. One minute a week is eminently doable.
I hate to be a d.ick but there’s no real benefit to being able to hold a horse stance that long. Once you get past a minute or two you’re only gaining endurance, and since the only time you will be in a horse stance for long periods of time is when you’re doing a form or horse stance training, that’s really the only thing you’re going to get better at. I’d rather spend 10 minutes lifting weights or sparring than holding a horse stance.
In other words, if your horse stance is 2 minutes, and you increase it to 10 minutes, you won’t be able to squat more, you won’t be able to kick harder, you won’t be able to run faster, etc. The only thing you will be able to do is hold a horse stance longer. Decide how important that is to you before you spend a lot of time training it.
Standing in horse is a great willpower builder. There isn’t any benefit to forcing yourself not to blink for thirty minutes, there also isn’t any other benefit to sparring full contact, there isn’t any other benefit to running either. These activities develop isolated skills that don’t necessarily tranfer over to squating, or any other exercise, but the amount of willpower developed with these exercises just might make the difference when you’re going for a PR. It also might make you better at overcoming any other type of adversity/physical pain. Squating is mind-over-matter too, especially at the advanced level. Since you can’t squat all of the time, wouldn’t it make sense to build your perseverance through other exercises too?
I guess I’m just playing devil’s advocate, but it makes sense dosen’t it?
I do YiQuan. In the group I train with, a newcomer is considered serious when he stands (zhan zhuang) until he falls down. I have fallen down a few times, and it’s a great release; blockages are blown out and my training proceeds at a higher level.
Sometimes it’s about something as simple as my feet have fallen asleep after 70 minutes or so.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Just knowing that a lot of you have had to do this sort of thing makes it seem like a far less daunting task.
To IronFist: I realize that being able to fight is a big part of martial arts, but it’s not the only part, in my opinion. I’d say mental and physical self-improvement is very important, as is doing forms. I imagine this sort of training improves your mind. I also bet that being able to push yourself until your body quits before your mind does makes it easier to improve yourself physically. And, as you said, it will certainly help with forms.
when you feel pain in your horse stance be happy! that is how you know that you are getting stronger, and thats the point that you have to push yourself past in order to become stronger. when you get to tired of holding a horse stance switch to a bow and arrow stance. this is the stance that most of us subconciously assume when we throw a punch(more or less)then when that stance gets too tired, switch to reverse bow stance, this stance will teach you how to create distance between you and your opponent to evade and block attacks. do both legs. remember train for 2 minutes and you will get 2 minute results, train for one hour and you will get 1 hour results.more importantly, listen to everything your teacher says very carefully and follow it, realize that he is the teacher and you are the student, and open your mind to his teachings.(if hes a good teacher)
its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.
Once you get past a minute or two you’re only gaining endurance, and since the only time you will be in a horse stance for long periods of time is when you’re doing a form or horse stance training, that’s really the only thing you’re going to get better at
really? ever seen those guys who can go real deep, and not break a sweat?
its true that holding a horse stance will not increase the amount of weight that you can squat. it builds springiness. just because you can squat a large amount of weight does not improve your jumping skills does it? you would think it would.
also, the horse stance increases the maximum output of your leg muscles.squats add unneccesary muscle.
Oh migawd! We have to report this! Every single S&C coach on the planet and the entire strength training literature is mistaken! Increasing relative strength and improved utilization of the stretch-shortening cycle have no bearing on verticle leap, what really matters is isometric muscular strength-endurance.
Fair enough. But if it’s willpower you’re after why not do something that doesn’t take so long?
There isn’t any benefit to forcing yourself not to blink for thirty minutes,
No, but there’s some damage that can be done by doing that.
there also isn’t any other benefit to sparring full contact,
NHB fighers would disagree.
there isn’t any other benefit to running either.
Sure there is. It develops cardiovascular endurance, for one thing.
These activities develop isolated skills that don’t necessarily tranfer over to squating, or any other exercise,
Running does. My point wasn’t that horse stance doesn’t transfer over to another exercise, but that it doesn’t transfer over to anything other than holding a horse stance for longer periods of time.
but the amount of willpower developed with these exercises just might make the difference when you’re going for a PR. It also might make you better at overcoming any other type of adversity/physical pain. Squating is mind-over-matter too, especially at the advanced level. Since you can’t squat all of the time, wouldn’t it make sense to build your perseverance through other exercises too?
I suppose if someone wanted to build their willpower that way.
ironfist, it seems to me that you have no martial arts experience, or am i wrong. isnt the horse stance the position that you assume naturally when you are going to lift something heavy? you would think that a muscle head such as yourself would know a thing about body alignment and mechanics.
no thanks, books recommended by typical power hungry mma wannabes usually bore the hell out of me. basic punches and kicks will do nothing for me, niether will the ability to over develop any of my bodies muscle groups. you can only learn so much in a gym. yet sometimes brute force is all you need in the boring moderately skilled mma world.
you probably tried but was never able to hold a decent stance i presume, you sound like the average wannabe to me. you shouldnt turn away knowledge until you can prove it wrong, if you continue to pursue martial arts in its entirety, you will not be able to overlook a strong horse stance, nor will you be able to put your anabolic steriod pumping creatine filled un flexible muscles to use either.
^ Bwahahahaha. Normally I’d take the time to correct someone who makes as many errors as you but in this case I just don’t care. The fact that you think weight training makes you inflexible is just the beginning of the gaps in your knowledge.
When you’re ready to discuss science and fact, let us know.
And btw, the deadlift is about 10,000 times more similar to lifting something heavy than a horse stance is.
Is training horse more legs or training your mind to ignore the pain? What if it was both? This is why people benefit from being thinking MA instead of just following whatever someone told them to do.
You ever here the saying “A strong mind and body”? You ever think “Why is my head bothered by the work my legs are doing”?
Your legs are directly connected to your head. If your legs hurt, your head is gonna hurt. If you make your legs strong, your head is gonna be strong. If you do it right. If you do it wrong you won’t feel the connection.
Meditation? I don’t know. I don’t agree with it honestly. What people call meditation me and my party buddies call “spacing out”. I think all those “emptying the mind” kinda sayings are just giving you encouragement. You go to the teacher asking for a way to make the pain stop. He has to tell you something or you won’t respect him. So he tells you that “empty your mind” stuff.
If he tells you “stop crying you pansy and get in the horse stance”, you will get mad and leave. Do you watch old kung fu movies? In some of them, the new student complains about pain. You know what the teacher does? He smacks them in the head. Doesn’t say a word, he just hits them. No coddling, no talking, no babying. You want to be a kung fu man, shut up and do the kung fu is the attitude those old guys had.
Nowadays between people needing paying students and working with people whose life is soft, ya gotta be nice to them or they will leave.
