Belt ranks in Kung Fu, are they needed?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1028337]
Most importantly, belts put the natural order out of order. 13 year old blackbelts, hard men with yellow belts, you know what I mean.[/quote]

Not in all schools. In the schools I have been involved with, kids could not be black belts. In my original muay thai school (which also taught JKD, kali and WC) you had to be at least 16 to train. At my long fist school, children under 13 are placed in a “little warriors” class. at 14 they may join the adults. No black sashes are awarded under age 17. My judo classes run the same way. you must be 8 to begin training. There is a minimum age for black belt testing. I have to look up what it is.

With all respect, BBJ for all its creativity, isn’t as complex as a system as others. What makes it so complex (from my poor ignorant perspective) is the innovation and creativity the practitioner puts into working and transitioning the fundamental moves. Its like golf. Simple, hit the ball straight, into the cup… So simple it should be dead easy…NOT.

Hope I don’t cop it from all the Golfers for that…GOLF PAI Jihad!

there is a lot more than that which makes it complicated.

42

[QUOTE=bawang;1028319]this has nothing to do rewards. this is using carrot on a stick trick because your student doesnt really like what ur teaching. their kung fu movie fantasies arent being fulfilled and they start to lose interest. students also want to leave because theyre neglected. belts take the attention away from what the student is actually learning and become the main focus. it adds a lot of ego.[/QUOTE] (italics mine)jh

This is a good observation. It especially applies to commercial schools that need to keep up membership to pay the bills. I’ve seen it lead to ego problems in some schools…arrogance and jealousy. But only for those students to whom arrogance and jealousy were already present. A good teacher can either tolerate it or deal with it.

The advantage of the non-commercial school is that you get to pick the students. I recommend the local eclectic karate school to anyone who asks me about belts or trophies. Our school is only for training and I’ve never made a dime in thirty years of teaching. There are no “belt tests.” There are no “promotions.” Just different sashes for different courses of study. My students stay because they like the training.

If I did not grow up in the tradition I would not use colored belts. As bawang notes there is a risk that they serve only as distractions. But I am happy to say that I have not observed it here. Our belt system was developed decades before the western “kung fu fad.” It is hard to tell whether it was intended to cause incentive, or as we were told, just a little traditional dharma passed on to keep the tradition alive, (and to create the impression that our teachings are somehow different from “most schools”). That sort of pride is amusing but harmless and I don’t mind it at all.

We also teach Choy Lei Fat at our school which is not part of the Lama lineage and has no universal rank system. I thought about applying the idea of grades to it as well. But, nah. It is already a good system. Why embellish it with baubles? Enough is enough.

43

i find using modern japanese custom in chinese kung fu offensive. i think its vain

44

Not in all schools. In the schools I have been involved with, kids could not be black belts. In my original muay thai school (which also taught JKD, kali and WC) you had to be at least 16 to train. At my long fist school, children under 13 are placed in a “little warriors” class. at 14 they may join the adults. No black sashes are awarded under age 17. My judo classes run the same way. you must be 8 to begin training. There is a minimum age for black belt testing. I have to look up what it is.

was the same in our school. And when I had my own, we wouldn’t take anyone under 13. the younger ones usually had a mid level instruct in basics, and we hardly ever tested kids until they had been there for a couple years.

there is a lot more than that which makes it complicated.

agree 100%.

45

[QUOTE=bawang;1028391]i find using modern japanese custom in chinese kung fu offensive. i think its vain[/QUOTE]

I think it is inappropriate but people will do whatever they want.

The whole belt rank thing in Japan is only a century old and only applies to modern budo, not to traditional martial arts. The bushi class never used anything like it. But the idea for the ranks came right out of the Chinese military and civil service grades of the Qing dynasty. The 9 dan (10th was honorary, for dead people) were copied from the Chinese tradition of 9 ranks and were applied in Japan first to ranking in Chinese “chess” competitions. Kano’s application of the kyu-dan system comes directly from neo-confucian values. Even the white=purity, black=humility is arguably Chinese. So how Japanese is it?

46

chinese chess players wear black belts??

ming army ranked through sparring and active promotion/demotion. failure in sparring results in flogging and expulsion. failure in firearm testing results in execution.
qing war scholar exams ranked 3 levels based on WEIGHT LIFTING up to 500 pounds. giving someone a belt for learning a form is rediculous

civilian school ranks the top fighter as “big brother”. some used mongolian animal ranking.

japan belts barely resembles military ranking. ming ranking uses level A,B,c, sublevels 1,2,3.
top fighter is A1 worst fighter is C3.

formal traditional testing method is well known. but kung fu people dont hae the balls the adopt it. because most sifus themselves would fail

47

[quote=bawang;1028319]

reward them a different colored buttplug after each testing. Seniors get the supreme black buttplug of almightiness.[/quote]

lol!!!

48

[QUOTE=bawang;1028415]chinese chess players wear black belts??[/QUOTE]

Nah, you know what I mean. Japanese chess players had dan ranks. The belt thang came later.

And there were nine ranks within the Qing government. Military “tests” confirmed ability, not rank. Which may be your point.

49

[QUOTE=jdhowland;1028426]Military “tests” confirmed ability, not rank. Which may be your point.[/QUOTE]

military exams confirmed rank. lifting stone barbell of 180 pounds = level 1. lifting 120 pounds = level 3. level 1 receives a higher rank.

in ming army A1 becomes platoon elder. A2 and below become squad elder. level Bs become auxilary support. C3 become logistics(cooks food and carries away buckets of feces, sometimes is the butt wife)

kung fu ranking today should be based on ability not on time and money investe

50

[QUOTE=bawang;1028431]
kung fu ranking today should be based on ability not on time and money invested[/QUOTE]

that would fix a lot of problems

51

using belts is obviously playing into the ignorance of average americans. belts = cool. black belt = badass
instead of trying to justifying it ppl should take a good look at themselves. does muay thai need belts? does wrestling need belts?

52

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1027917] I only earned two belts in my life: a yellow belt in judo when I was 8 [/QUOTE]
“I thank fu(king Jesus and all his disciples that I will not be the victim of ur 8 y/o judo rage” (adapted from MMA utube cip, lol)

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1028083]Sifu is not here to motivate you, sifu is here if you are motivated.[/QUOTE]
yes - this, to me, is ultimately where it’s at: to wit, I have not trained in a school with ranking for over 20 years, and I don’t miss it at all; actually, my taiji sifu had a “black belt” test once, about 12 years ago - it was for 8 or so students who had been with him about 8-15 (or more) years, had been through his 4-year teacher training seminar (which he did only once as well - that’s his m.o. - he does something when the time is opportune, but he may never do it again!); it was an all-day test, and involved written, demonstration, oral quizzing - pretty intense actually (and the emphasis was healing-based, not martial, but still…); I had just started with him for ~2 years but was acting as his “attendant” for the day; in his estimation, “black” belt represented the attainment of the first of five levels - the first level is “well done” as in cooked through, as in ready for refinement; the next 3 represent further levels of refinement, the last represents “noumena”; well, he hasn’t had another test since; actually, I remember one guy, who was in fact “senior” to most of the others there, started the written test, and was like, “I am not prepared for this” (I guess he kinda didn’t get the point about self-motivation), and sifu was like, “well, then you should leave”, which he did without another word (actually, sifu remarked later how impressed he was by the way in which the guy was forthright and the attitude of equanimity he displayed when leaving…)
anyway, just sayin’…

[QUOTE=SevenStar;1028314]the western culture like rewards.[/QUOTE]
I think so-called “eastern” culture likes rewards as well, just in a different manner, perhaps?

[QUOTE=bawang;1028415]ming army ranked through sparring and active promotion/demotion. failure in sparring results in flogging and expulsion. failure in firearm testing results in execution.[/QUOTE]
awesome! I vote for wholesale adoption in all US Kem/npo schools immediately, since they r so ready to hype themselves as ultra-traditional!

53

Mental

I think it’s a mental thing. The belt represents something different for different users.

Some people take great pride in their rank. Some could care less. The belt is ultimately symbol. It’s what you make out of it. Maybe some people could consider it as a mark of personal achievement and pride not unlike a national flag, also a piece of cloth.

It’s how your mind relates to it that really matters. It could be a great asset to you or simply nothing.

What do you think?

54

[QUOTE=thelegend731;1028466]I think it’s a mental thing. The belt represents something different for different users.

Some people take great pride in their rank. Some could care less. The belt is ultimately symbol. It’s what you make out of it. Maybe some people could consider it as a mark of personal achievement and pride not unlike a national flag, also a piece of cloth.

It’s how your mind relates to it that really matters. It could be a great asset to you or simply nothing.

What do you think?[/QUOTE]

For a first post, you need work. Focus on making the point, perhaps add some insight, and avoid all the conditional tense - Of course one can do whatever one wants to, that’s not the point. A belt COULD be a plate of Steaming Cheese Nachos too, if you were perverted enough to take it there…wrapped around your waist, dripping down into your Iron Gear gear…

Refine the directness of your posting, keep practising, and with 10 more good posts, you will probably be able to achieve white belt in the forum posting stakes.
Keep up the good work…

55

Oh yea, just to clarify, here in the main forum, it only takes 10 posts, in the Southern Forum, it takes 100. I’m sure you understand, we’re not quite as efficient at training as here in the main forum.

56

instead of trying to justifying it ppl should take a good look at themselves. does muay thai need belts? does wrestling need belts?

bawang… if there was a master of such things as HW8 says there is I would claim you as such. In the clamor you spout, many jewels are to be found. :wink: ( seriously sometimes you amaze me with the things you say)

57

Greetings,

Rank should represent the combination of three things: dedication, responsibility and ability. If we were to follow that there would be no ranking system below black sash/belt. If I was to be a little flexible on this it would be white belt, brown belt, black belt.

If your school’s culture upholds and reinforces the aforementioned attributes, rank becomes meaningless. Though it can be hard on the money making aspect, this hardcore approach attracts people that will stay for the long haul, through thick and thin.

mickey

58

I believe rank should depend on the instructors choice. Personally I don’t care for uniforms or belt colors I prefer to train in t shirt and shorts and individual ability speaks for it self. I just don’t see how some schools could not do with out belts though with so many students, classes how would a sifu remember all those peoples abilities when trying to conform a class routine.

59

Ranking system can control the quality. If your ranking system require your 1st degree black belt to have at least 5 times Sanshou/Sanda tournament experience, and he has to get either 1st, 2nd or 3rd place in those tournament, You will never have any student who is not willing/capable to fight.

60

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1028469]For a first post, you need work. Focus on making the point, perhaps add some insight, and avoid all the conditional tense - Of course one can do whatever one wants to, that’s not the point. A belt COULD be a plate of Steaming Cheese Nachos too, if you were perverted enough to take it there…wrapped around your waist, dripping down into your Iron Gear gear…

Refine the directness of your posting, keep practising, and with 10 more good posts, you will probably be able to achieve white belt in the forum posting stakes.
Keep up the good work…[/QUOTE]

Way to shut me down lol..

I thought I was making a point, and I thought I was adding some insight. I wouldn’t have posted otherwise. You could have just messaged me instead of posting something irrelevant to the post.

But to add a relevant point which Yum Cha (with all due respect) has seemed to forgotten. Certain martial arts masters give belts with a deep sense of honor. There are those martial arts who have thorough belt ceremonies and each rank upward signifies a deeper meaning not unlike a ritual of manhood. Some places award belts for money, but some other places will never award you with a Black belt regardless of your level of physical skill. Of course quality control could be an adequate, yet superficial method of using belts. But I would like to view the giving of belts as a way to showcase the “art” in the martial arts and the depth that it could entail.

That’s another 2 cents.