Can’t call spam on me, Dragonzbane76
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[QUOTE=GeneChing;1027927]My spam pays the rent around here. Without my spam, we’d have to turn this forum off.
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[/QUOTE]
YOU GOT THAT!!!
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1027848]In your opinion, do you believe it is necessary to have this system in your style?[/QUOTE]
No.
Can they be useful under the correct setting? Yes.
I guess im kind of an ass because i dont buy the motivation excuse. not for adults. I’m of the opinion that if someone cannot motivate themselves to attain skill, thats their problem. Maybe they need to mature, or maybe they arent as passionate as they thought they were or wanted to be. I mean we are martial artists. The only motivation you really need is knowing someone could beat your ass unless you train hard and constantly improve.
I have nothing against the use of the belt rank systems that many styles use. If thats part of your tradition, thats cool.
Kids definately need tangible rewards, I think if you have a kids program, belts are a good idea.
We don’t actually wear belts (or sashes) but we have a “belt system”
I avoided it for YEARS, obviously had experienced it a lot doing Korean and Japanese systems for years… but ultimately I came to the conclusion that some sort of ordering system AND reward and/or goal system is important
My school is set up with 101, 202 and 303 classes
Everyone starts in 101 : warm up, footwork, stance, basic punches kicks knees, elbows, etc hitting focus mitts, kicking shields, physical conditioning
EVERYONE needs to do that stuff, and it works as a great fitness program. I routinely have 35 to 45 people PER CLASS
For people who want to do the “martial art” of it, 101 is like “white belt”
202 is the contact work, boxing drills, kickboxing drills, clinching, wrestling… you want to get in shape but don’t want contact DO NOT DO 202
For everyone else, this is basic stuff, it is like “green belt”
Now, you want to be serious? Well, then we have a test, show us all the 101 and 202 stuff, pass the test, go to 303 which includes the hard sparring, the advanced stuff, etc, to us that is “blue belt”
IN the past 4 years I have als begun to recognize my long time seniors and those dedicated to the school with “black belts”
Means nothing to me, but I can tell you, to those guys who have been with the school a long time, it meant something indeed
[QUOTE=Lucas;1027931]No.
Can they be useful under the correct setting? Yes.
I guess im kind of an ass because i dont buy the motivation excuse. not for adults. I’m of the opinion that if someone cannot motivate themselves to attain skill, thats their problem. Maybe they need to mature, or maybe they arent as passionate as they thought they were or wanted to be. I mean we are martial artists. The only motivation you really need is knowing someone could beat your ass unless you train hard and constantly improve.
I have nothing against the use of the belt rank systems that many styles use. If thats part of your tradition, thats cool.
Kids definately need tangible rewards, I think if you have a kids program, belts are a good idea.[/QUOTE]
I agree that it is kind of sad to use a belt as motivation for an adult, but sometimes it does pay off and a student uses this tangible albeit meaningless thing to motivate themselves in to working toward an ultimate goal, which should really be nothing more than being as good at your chosen system as you continuing to develop one’s skills.
Often you hear arguments about combat sports such as boxing and Muay Thai not using rank, but you also have BJJ and Judo which both use rank through competition. I don’t think one should necessarily have to compete to earn rank, however, a solid test that involves everything you have learned up to that point and hard contact sparring is a must if you are going to implement a rank system.
i think no for cultural reasons
Can’t call spam on me, Dragonzbane76
My spam pays the rent around here. Without my spam, we’d have to turn this forum off.
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haha got me thar…
yeah, kind of hard to spam your self really. 
belts -
there’s a lot of ways to go. I think, and correct me if Im wrong, but a lot fo kungfu schools go with 5 generally. (5 elements/ 5 as a prime/ 5 as a cosmic number/etcetera)
usually : white/gold/green/red/black then instructor and often with certificates as well.
some places break down the minutia even more and start adding levels to the colours or stripes on the belts to denote that and so on.
There’s also the 3 level approach novice/student/master
or the filial approach student/elder student/teacher-father and all the uncles and grandparents and cousins on the side
They are similar to military rankings or religious rankings. they represent our need to put things into heirarchies and lend solemnity to practice and put a serious tone to the efforts at hand.
Ultimately, it would be nice if everyone had their crap together and knew what progression was and how to see it and feel it, but alas… this is not true for the greater part although oddly enough, I believe we each and all recognize this aspect of humanity (diligent perseverance and dedication to an artform). We recognize the value of it and we actively seek to connect to and identify with things, people and organizations in this construct.
unless you are some freak job monk of course who sees and hears what is. lol
anyway, belts and sashes? I’m for them. Embrace it for what it is. If you need it as a learning tool or to keep your school’s bills paid, it is a simple and effective method to employ.
so long as you demonstrably know what you say you know, it’s all good.
Motivation?
Sifu is not here to motivate you, sifu is here if you are motivated.
Better to go away sooner than later, less wasted time on a lost cause.
Its nice being non-commercial. Everybody is motivated, or somewhere else, out of the way.
My Sifu has a sash system in place however was not taught with one. The reason he has one in place now is because he designed the curriculum with a natural progression in mind. I agree with this because previously our style was taught “chop suey” and he wanted there to be a logical learning process beginning with the foundational stuff and then getting on to advanced material once you have mastered the basics. However, the sashes have no real importance.
Everybody knows who is better at what, belts don’t do anything but reinforce a false hierarchy, or an obvious one, either way.
Personally, I think you don’t need additional benchmarks, there are enough milestones already, forms, number of combinations and skill at execution, fighting skill, mental attitude… The natural order of things is best left to find its own course.
Also, belts indicate a one size fits all standard. I disagree with that, as each student has different talents and weaknesses, and each has to be addressed in its own time.
Belts certainly change the way people train, the question is, to what end? How does it change ones participation?
Don’t mean to sound too critical, its a cultural thing to each art and school, and I accept that, fair enough. Just not my preferred culture.
My culture is that if you aren’t internally motivated, if you don’t make it your own and take responsibility for your training, you might as well stay home. In a complex art like mine, if you don’t have this character, you are probably better off elsewhere. This is a cornerstone to our teaching, you can see how it goes contrary to the belt system.
Our school uses them but we don’t put much emphasis on them until the student has been around long enough to understand the symbolism. Our color scheme goes back at least three generations but I have seen no evidence that it existed before the early 20th century. Traditionally our type of yiu dai should be at least 14’ long and we can’t get them from Hong Kong anymore so we have to make our own. I don’t like to have younger students wear them because it might inhibit proper breathing if they aren’t worn correctly. Their use as trusses is more important for older students as the exercises become more intense. I do recall reading, though, that Lau Fat Man made his daughters wear them from a very early age so that their bodies would adapt to the pressure as they grew.
Our color system is supposed to represent different stages and different areas of training, but in practice my teachers seemed to treat them as an ordinary hierarchy and the initiatory experience wasn’t really emphasized. You put in a few years and you might wear a different color. I don’t think this was the original intent, but it’s okay.
The hierarchy is based on the color scheme of the wheel of dharma and one progresses through the six stages from black to white while being constantly reminded of the qualities/hindrances that are to be sought and overcome at each stage. The complete hierarchy runs like this: 1. black, 2. red, 3. green, 4. yellow, 5. blue, 6. white. My first teacher dropped green to make a 5-color system. My second teacher switched black to the last color for his own reasons.
For celebrations, everybody wears red. For funerals/memorials everyone wears white (this hasn’t happened yet in our school). The belts go over the trousers, not over the jacket. These help to subdue the percieved importance of the colors as signs of rank.
if someone needs belts to stay in ur school it means he doesnt really have any respect for your school or you or what u teach. hes only staying because of the carrot on a stick. i think its a lack of understanding chinese culture.
also i think its because the kung fu fad is over and schools are desperate for students
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1027853]I run a sport school, but not everyone competes. So, essentially, unless they are focused on the training or some fitness goal, a lot of them tend to lose interest after a month or two because they aren’t working toward anything in particular.
In that regard, I think a ranking system helps traditional schools keep students focused by providing achievable goals, which in turn keeps them interested in training.[/QUOTE]
so what should the system of progression be in a sport style? is it achivement based like bjj? seems like that may cause a loss of interest also for those not interested in competing. I know it did at our school. Or rather, would it be technique based, like a judo curriculum?
[QUOTE=bawang;1028307]if someone needs belts to stay in ur school it means he doesnt really have any respect for your school or you or what u teach. hes only staying because of the carrot on a stick. i think its a lack of understanding chinese culture.
also i think its because the kung fu fad is over and schools are desperate for students[/QUOTE]
the western culture like rewards.
then give your students money
[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1028287]Everybody knows who is better at what, belts don’t do anything but reinforce a false hierarchy, or an obvious one, either way.
Personally, I think you don’t need additional benchmarks, there are enough milestones already, forms, number of combinations and skill at execution, fighting skill, mental attitude… The natural order of things is best left to find its own course.[/quote]
a style like shuai chiao or a pure san shou school will have no forms, no set combos to learn, no one and three step sparring, etc. Plus, the ranks give spectators and newcomers an idea of who to be watching to see what the advanced skills should look like. Otherwise, they have to watch and try to figure it out.
Also, belts indicate a one size fits all standard. I disagree with that, as each student has different talents and weaknesses, and each has to be addressed in its own time.
no it doesn’t. in the old days of my long fist school, tests were individual. He based your test on your own strengths and weaknesses. No two students took the same test.
My culture is that if you aren’t internally motivated, if you don’t make it your own and take responsibility for your training, you might as well stay home. In a complex art like mine, if you don’t have this character, you are probably better off elsewhere. This is a cornerstone to our teaching, you can see how it goes contrary to the belt system.
bjj is as complicated a system as any. Not sure what bearing that has on the necessity (or lack thereof) of belt ranks.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1027848]This question goes out to the TCMA’s here who train in a system of Kung Fu that maintains a belt/sash ranking system. In your opinion, do you believe it is necessary to have this system in your style. Traditionally speaking they did not and most of us know belt ranks were for the most part an Americanized standard, but please give your opinions on why or why not they are needed. Thanks.:)[/QUOTE]
The ultimate goal is to become a sifu/expert. Most psychologist will tell you that it is best to break a long-term goal into a number of short-term milestones. You have to keep in mind that students come into a school or a backyard of a sifu to train and they may or may not have any understanding about training, goal setting, or life in general. A sifu is there to help guide them along the path of life in a number of respects. No I am not saying to set one’s self up like some sort of object of worship like an old kung fu movie. However, kung fu might be a person’s first experience with setting long term goals, working, etc. etc. Even if they are adults. We need to help the along the way.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1028314]the western culture like rewards.[/QUOTE]
this has nothing to do rewards. this is using carrot on a stick trick because your student doesnt really like what ur teaching. their kung fu movie fantasies arent being fulfilled and they start to lose interest. students also want to leave because theyre neglected. belts take the attention away from what the student is actually learning and become the main focus. it adds a lot of ego.
if ur students like reward so much instead of belts why not reward them a different colored buttplug after each testing. seniors get the supreme black buttplug of almightiness.
Hi Seven, nice to have you back around.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1028316]a style like shuai chiao or a pure san shou school will have no forms, no set combos to learn, no one and three step sparring, etc. Plus, the ranks give spectators and newcomers an idea of who to be watching to see what the advanced skills should look like. Otherwise, they have to watch and try to figure it out.
[/QUOTE]
And the problem is? Everybody that needs to know, knows. If all you do is spar and the like, its even more obvious - the rest is pride? Recognition? Reward?
Most importantly, belts put the natural order out of order. 13 year old blackbelts, hard men with yellow belts, you know what I mean.
In an unfamiliar environment, I can see belts being a clue to seniors as to how to deal with people, but in your own school, naaa.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1028316]
no it doesn’t. in the old days of my long fist school, tests were individual. He based your test on your own strengths and weaknesses. No two students took the same test.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SevenStar;1028316]
bjj is as complicated a system as any. Not sure what bearing that has on the necessity (or lack thereof) of belt ranks.[/QUOTE]
With all respect, BBJ for all its creativity, isn’t as complex as a system as others. What makes it so complex (from my poor ignorant perspective) is the innovation and creativity the practitioner puts into working and transitioning the fundamental moves. Its like golf. Simple, hit the ball straight, into the cup… So simple it should be dead easy…NOT.
Hope I don’t cop it from all the Golfers for that…GOLF PAI Jihad!