Ranking Systems-Pros and Cons

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Many have heard this in rant form before, but ill present a list of pros and cons, and some probable solutions I have found usefull.

In an attempt at being positive Ill start with the pro’s

  1. Classmates can know who to come to for information and help if they are new and/or the class is large.

  2. The teacher knows who to teach what too.

  3. Motivates the students by visual reward when training

  4. Can serve to preserve arts integrity-for example you have a student “Ted” who trains for a year, but does not work hard, or bother to get things right so never makes the first rank. Why would Ted go around telling people he trained under you for a year and never made a belt/sash? On the other hand, if you had no belts/sashes Ted could say he trained under you for a year and just say there wasnt any rank in the system, so they would just assume he is decent, or at the level he should be after a year.

    Rank can also give people a gauge for what the quality of the art is like, or the particular school. If “Ted” gets a black belt/sash from a school , but he has no skill then it will reflect poorly, as it should.

  5. Good for a checklist-the student knows what they need to learn and when. They have a goal to achieve. The course is not a suprise, they know what is to come, and what is expected.

Cons

  1. Can bring Ego into the school-often times ive seen peoples heads swell becuase of the color of their belt/sash. IT can affect the way the treat other students in the class, and people in general.

  2. Its easy for students to place emphasis on memorization and always learning, instead of training.- In many schools You can make rank by learning new forms and movments, then test and move on without training them properly. This is a prioritization issue, and making sure what is learned is trained so it is useable and up to par.

  3. Abused to make $$$- many schools charge to much to test, how much does a nice certificate cost to make? Not much, just some time, and a decent printer. This also brings money into an faucet of the MA in which it doesnt belong, soon people will be auctioning black belts and “courses” on EBAY- oh, too late!

4.refer to con #1

  1. Allows the teacher and other students to get complacent about the students/classmates, they just look at the belt and can assume the person is still up to par on the material. That quick visual reference and assumption can come back and nip them later. Just becuase they have learned the material does not automatically make them qualified to teach it.

Solutions for 5 cons-

  1. Dont allow the rank to be worn to class, the rank is not visable, so it becomes less obvious who is what, and people can’t flaunt it. Everyone will feel more equal and be more productive.

  2. Tell students often that rank is not important, learning correctly, and training to use the material is. If step one is being done, it will not be a day to day visable issue.

3.Dont charge for testing, unless they want a really fancy certificate you have to order, then let them order it themselves or pay what you pay for it. This will prove progression is based on work and not $$$$. If your a student dont pay for it, just say your not interested in making rank if $$ is involved, you’d rather just learn the art.

4.Make sure they know that rank doesnt mean anything to others, many now view Black belts as a joke becuase so many people are giving them away. But skill and character is what counts.

  1. The teacher should know all of the students well, if that is not possible for some reason, then perhaps a distinction between a green belt, and person who is qualified to teach green belt techniques should be made.

Ok im tired of typing, lets hear everyone elses thoughts, opinions and experiances with the rank issue.

Gary R.

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Re: Ranking Systems-Pros and Cons

Originally posted by gazza99
[B]Many have heard this in rant form before, but ill present a list of pros and cons, and some probable solutions I have found usefull.

[b]Solutions for 5 cons-

  1. Dont allow the rank to be worn to class, the rank is not visable, so it becomes less obvious who is what, and people can’t flaunt it. Everyone will feel more equal and be more productive.[/b]

But then, students would not know who to ask or guidance, other than their sifu, which was one of the pros that you mentioned.

2. Tell students often that rank is not important, learning correctly, and training to use the material is. If step one is being done, it will not be a day to day visable issue.

Some people need that motication that striving for the next rank can provide. Instead of telling them that it’s not important, let them know that there is more to rank testing than memorization, and that they must also show that they are training hard and have made serious progress and gained more understanding.

3.Dont charge for testing, unless they want a really fancy certificate you have to order, then let them order it themselves or pay what you pay for it. This will prove progression is based on work and not $$$$. If your a student dont pay for it, just say your not interested in making rank if $$ is involved, you’d rather just learn the art.

I like that one.

4.Make sure they know that rank doesnt mean anything to others, many now view Black belts as a joke becuase so many people are giving them away. But skill and character is what counts.

see response for solution 2.

5. The teacher should know all of the students well, if that is not possible for some reason, then perhaps a distinction between a green belt, and person who is qualified to teach green belt techniques should be made.

I like that one too

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good feedback

  1. Dont allow the rank to be worn to class, the rank is not visable, so it becomes less obvious who is what, and people can’t flaunt it. Everyone will feel more equal and be more productive.

"But then, students would not know who to ask or guidance, other than their sifu, which was one of the pros that you mentioned. "

In a huge class this may be a problem, but if the teacher knows most of the students, he/she can pair them up to train in the right groups/pairs. The students should know each other as well.
I think this minor issue is better than the other option con #1. I find this works well with my class, but I keep my class 15 people or less.

Gary

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Do you deny people to train in your class, or has it always been less than 15?

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Yup

I dont take kids, I dont advertise except my website, no yellow page ad, I interview all the potential students, and I turn peolpe away. But I have no bills to pay, as I teach on the AFB base.
When I first started teaching I did a demonstration once at a local boxing tourney. Then next class I had 30 people show up. So only taught them how to stand for a few hours. Did some qigong! Most of them never came back! They thought they were going to learn to be Bruce Lee! But the few that stayed are still with me a year and a half later.

Gary

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i wasn’t going to attempt to add anything to this thread… i thought your first post gazza was very good…

but since we’re still on the subject: i really think a good instructor should know what stage his/her students are at, and should be able to pair them with someone useful.

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One “friend” of mine: “Well it’s a system that my master teaches in his backyard to a few of us. He doesn’t believe in belts.” His master also didn’t believe in fighting since my friend sukd.

Rank in our school is used only as rank in our school, doesn’t mean much outside of it. It’s just an easy way for our instructors and students to keep track of which part of the curricullum they’re at and what they should concentrate on.

Anyways, If rank doesn’t mean anything to you Gary why bring it up? Sounds like reverse snobbery to me.

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ok?

Re rogue: “Anyways, If rank doesn’t mean anything to you Gary why bring it up? Sounds like reverse snobbery to me.”

Why bring it up? Last time I checked this was a MA discussion forum? Thought it is a valid topic no matter my views, I tried to give good pros’/con’s, rank can be a great tool in my opinion, its good hear ideas on how to use it better, and what to avoid.

Im sorry if it wasnt good enough for you Rogue. Now im a reverse snob? How is that? I would think not being a snob would be a good thing! Why dont you address the points made objectivley and keep the discussion civil if thats not too much to ask.

Gary

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when i was teaching

I took a very Lackadazeicle approach. no interviews to see if they are “worthy” and no shpeil or rhetorich explaining that"it takes a serious blah blah blah" to me its not warranted. you accept potential students and you create a base of folks and you will see who is serious and who is not. it is nice to see those individuals that were not really serious about thier stuides reverse themselves.
As far as rank is concerned,i have NEVER liked the ranking system,its too ego based and it seems as though the advancement of rank precedes the advancement of skill or the self. before SD i was taught in the traditional way which had no rank, just an acknowledgement of being a student and accepting that this what you will always be (in the eyes of the master or teacher).
Many Respects,The Willow Sword

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Ok im tired of typing, lets hear everyone elses thoughts, opinions and experiances with the rank issue.
And that’s what you got. There are arrogant snobs who think a belt means they’re the ultimate, there are also arrogant snobs who think that because they don’t use belts that they’re superior in some way(reverse snobs). As I said “Rank in our school is used only as rank in our school, doesn’t mean much outside of it.”

Why dont you address the points made objectivley and keep the discussion civil if thats not too much to ask.
Well Gary, because I’m a TKDope and also practice karate-duh.

  1. Dont allow the rank to be worn to class, the rank is not visable, so it becomes less obvious who is what, and people can’t flaunt it. Everyone will feel more equal and be more productive.
    You’re assuming that people will flaunt it. In my school we’re all on a first name basis and rank isn’t an issue except who’s allowed to teach. Also I don’t feel equal to our black belts in skill and it doesn’t hurt my productivity.
  1. Tell students often that rank is not important, learning correctly, and training to use the material is. If step one is being done, it will not be a day to day visable issue.
    I’d turn that around to, “Tell students that rank is only important, if you are learning correctly, and training to use the materials.”

3.Dont charge for testing, unless they want a really fancy certificate you have to order, then let them order it themselves or pay what you pay for it. This will prove progression is based on work and not $$$$. If your a student dont pay for it, just say your not interested in making rank if $$ is involved, you’d rather just learn the art.
We charge a nominal fee, but as our monthly is very inexpensive it helps pay the bills. We get people (me included) who have stalled out in advancing in rank. This usually happens around blue or brown belt. So I know we don’t do it for the bucks. In the past I have been part of a school that promoted for dollars, so I hear what you’re saying. Collected an arm load of belts that meant nothing.

4.Make sure they know that rank doesnt mean anything to others, many now view Black belts as a joke becuase so many people are giving them away. But skill and character is what counts.
Agree and disagree. There’s the Kempo master that had to jack his rank up to 15th degree because of all the 10th degrees. So there is silliness out there. On the other hand I think a black belt in BJJ, JJJ or Judo does mean something to other MA.

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..

Good points Willow!

RE:Rogue: " there are also arrogant snobs who think that because they don’t use belts that they’re superior in some way(reverse snobs). "
Ok so I suppose your term “reverse snobbs” is still refering to a snob? Thats ok, I am neither, I do have a sash system so my students know what they should be working on, but we do not wear them in class, we train in sweats/shorts and t-shirts. We dont need uniforms and belts to train, just personal preference I guess, no snobbery/reverse snobbery going on.

Why dont you address the points made objectivley and keep the discussion civil if thats not too much to ask.

“Well Gary, because I’m a TKDope and also practice karate-duh”

Another great answer, thanks for playing.

“You’re assuming that people will flaunt it. In my school we’re all on a first name basis and rank isn’t an issue except who’s allowed to teach. Also I don’t feel equal to our black belts in skill and it doesn’t hurt my productivity.”

Im not only assuming that is possible, im speaking from experiance, im sure many people here can attest to he ego issue as well (see willow’s post). That is great for your school, but its not a perfect world.

"I’d turn that around to, “Tell students that rank is only important, if you are learning correctly, and training to use the materials.”

That may be a good point. Congradulations!

“On the other hand I think a black belt in BJJ, JJJ or Judo does mean something to other MA”

  Interesting statement, so no other arts ranks are mean something to the others? Why would the above? Perhaps BJJ is a new mutation of JJ so the schools so they have less wiggle room for B.S. ?
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What’s the interview process consist of?

willow sword:

"its too ego based and it seems as though the advancement of rank precedes the advancement of skill or the self. "

A teacher should be able to fix that. Check out my post.

As for the bjj/jjj/judo black belts meaning something, what he is saying is that those arts are such that a black belt is not something that can be given away, and are therefore respected in most circles. for example, in judo, your black belt test is done in front of a board of people, it’s not given by your teacher. Also, they roll from the very beginning, with an amount of force that they may also use in the street - not point sparring, or no sparring at all, like some schools. This is not to say that other schools don’t spar, but it’s known that not all of them do, and not all do so realistically. In those schools, you can get a black belt without having any real experience or knowledge of what you can do, and you are considered as one of the jokes.

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Our school doesn’t really have a ranking system. They learn the forms, and if students are more advanced, they help the lower students. BUT…because they all LOVE to go to tournaments THEN they have to show rank…so they have a sash, because it’s “mandatory” for them to wear one. But, all our students wear the same colored sash :slight_smile: . SO, that kinda confuses people. But anyway, I think ranking is over rated. If you are learning your material properly, and know what you’re doing, and your instructors know what you’re doing, there’s no need. We are pretty on top of it all. And yeah, we’re like a big family! We do tons of stuff together all the time…they also invade my house a wee hours of the morn to practice or watch a movie, or come BS! So, I’d say I know my students pretty well!!

SO STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT…be nice to each other guys…please!

~Wen~

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I use ranks in my class. Not colored belts but levels. Same basic principle though. I am an orginized person. I like to have things neat.

I tried not using uniforms or rank for a while but most people like uniforms better. So do I, I mean they are comfortable for practice. It also eleminates the factor of students wearing things unpracticle for heavy practice.

The ranks help define what a student should be working on but it also helps motivate them by seeing what other training they will do in the future giving them goals etc.

I think one short comming of CMA is the lack of orginization in terms of curriculum. Ranks help keep a standard for what should be passed down.

Also the higher rank a student gets the more respect they usually have for others ability’s and their own shortcommings. If not then they don’t train hard enough.

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Well said SD!!
We have levels..but not official rank…keeps it easier…

~Wen~

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I don’t think it’s the grading system or the belts that causes ego problems. It’s the people.

The colour of your sash is irrelevant anywhere except inside your kwoon. It means nothing on the street and should be treated as such. Sure, be happy that your have achieved a certain level and aim to achieve the next - but don’t let it go to your head. It is what it is and nothing more!

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I think it was Brent Carey’s website

that had a good, and quite immaginative way of dealing with those who let their rank go to their heads. They keep a pink sash on hand to award until the offender learns a little humility.

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Within your school/art, how comparable are the skill levels of folks within a given belt level? Say you have several blue belts (or red, or green, or whatever)… can they be expected to fight about as well as each other, or are belts awarded on some criteria other than being able to “hang” with others of the same belt level?

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We have grades in our style, the main benefit being if I want to train at another branch the instructor and can see straight away what level you are at and where you fit in with his/her own students
Peter

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belts? As royce said: “they cover two inches of your ass, the rest you have to back up your self.” Oh and they hold your trousers up too. As for denoting rank. The way you move speaks for it self.