Old Jong- nothing wrong with being an animal. Watch out-
the animal rights folks and the spca may get you. You have insulted their school and their honor.
The mongoose.
Re: Kathy Jo!
Originally posted by old jong
You know I’m an human being!..[SIZE=4]I’m not an animal!..[/SIZE]
LOL. I love that line. 
You know I would’nt dare to make my students pass by the deep side of Wing Chun!..Eh?
I hope you don’t think I implied that, Old Jong. I don’t presume you’d wish it any more than I’d wish to encourage folks to practice parlor tricks in lieu of becoming formidable, no-nonsense exponents of Wing Chun.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Ladies gentlemen and various beasts out there!
I want to thank my good friend Matrix for summerizing my thoughts so well! He said it all in one sentence and I have only succed in being been incoherent in many posts!
I will try again…(it is my idea after all!)
I used to teach classical guitar years ago…Yeah!
And I can compare Wing Chun progression to guitar’s.I used to ask my students to be able to perform simple little tunes before trying themselves on Bach’s ‘‘Chaconne’’ or ‘‘Aranguez Concerto’’.Even if I would have insisted on playing perfect one note at the times,their understanding of the instrument and their technical and physical level would have prevented them from doing that.So normaly,they had to work hard to perform a simple little tune effectively.As times passed and with hard work,they gradually were able to play more intricate and difficult pieces.You have to be able to be perfect in simple things before the more suttle ones,and,it goes like that in any fields.
This is why I favor a more simple but effective approach for my beginners.More external if you want to put it this way.I stress correct alignment and structure from the beginning so the progress is linear and we don’t bump into technical or conceptual walls later.
Sorry for the parlor tricks KJ!.. My grumpy androposic side is active sometimes! :eek: BY the way,How are you Yuanfen?..
I’m still finding it difficult to see why it’s an issue at all. Nobody can just dump all their knowledge into someone (well, Spock, maybe) so doing something ‘external’, or even dead simple/explicit, while holding to base principles works just great. The lights are on, but it’s just not your house.
‘External’ techniques are still part of the whole CMA equation, thus still valid- they’re just another means. Hard goes to ‘soft’ after awhile & ‘soft’ eventually requires hard to function, IMO. Simple, if simplistic. Perfection of technique is part of that refinement process.
Further question tho: how ‘tough’ are you on your students? Do you beat them up or something? Getting ready for UFC?
Re: Ladies gentlemen and various beasts out there!
Originally posted by old jong
I want to thank my good friend Matrix for summerizing my thoughts so well!
Odd as it may seem, I was thinking the same thing.
My grumpy androposic side is active sometimes!
Do you mean andropausic? In any event, no worries. Besides, just think what we’ve all got to look forward to when I become menopausic.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
KJ
Hah! You’ll just become memnopausic! “Wotwuzthatagin…?”
Teach tough and technical. The key is balance.
To many styles spend to much time on theory and not enough on application.
Both are needed.
Hey {i^( (I like the sound of your name!)
No! I don’t beat my students but,I just show them in a practical manner how a good angled tan sau for example can deflect a real punch.I give them a couple of shots going harder as their technique is getting better. They know for sure they can handle a hard shot by experience this way. I do that with all the basic motions.
Hey Kathy Jo
How about you let me finish with my crisis before you get on with your’s?..
Ng Mui
Are you the real one?.. You’re right BTW:)
Tough and technical, applications and abstractions - complementary! one cannot be understood without the other.
Wing chun is a fighting art, and fighting is what should be taught - this gives students a real understanding of what they are doing when practicing the more esoteric aspects of wing chun.
However, without the depth, the applications will not work, and wing chun becomes shallow and limited.
How i teach is a simple process - take an application, break it down, understand, practice component elements, relate to forms, go back to application. Tie together the main concepts - find component elements the same for so many different applications - discover the conceptual nature and beauty of wing chun. This cycle application-abstract-test applies within a lesson, within a series of lessons, within the lifetime of a student - gradual shift from more applications to esoterics over time… takes several years to get there…
Ng Mui is correct.
I prefer the second approach.
In a way, we use SLT as a litmus test to see which students have the tenacity and the understanding to want to learn wing chun.
At a karate school, you feel great after the first lesson, you are dynamic, you have shouted, kicked and punched.
After a first lesson with our school, you would have covered the first section of SLT, the concepts and reasons behind the stance, centreline, and lut sao jik chung. The student goes away in no doubt that it he cannot use it to fight yet, and will not be able to for a length of time.
Power is completely de-emphasised at the beginning, but stance, structure and precision is everything. Jeez, I am sounding like red5angel! I am Wong Shun Leung style, honest!
I think this approach is more honest compared to the karate school, which gives you an undeserved feeling of achievement and superiority in its early stages.
Having said that, concentrating on the punch at the beginning is and extremely good idea, as good striking skills are the foundation of the style. I would just prefer not to let the students think that after a month or two, they can start kicking arses, when they quite blatantly cannot.
Old Jong, Like Kj pointed out, a quick fix can be found with other arts. We study wingchun and wingchun is a deep art. to get real appreciable skill you have to put in a lot of time and energy. That is where I would say that hard work is. Not training hard to be better faster. You can kick/punch/block as hard as you want in class but that wont get you anywhere but in trouble if something goes wrong on the streets.
If I were an instructor and I had a student that wanted to learn self defense as quickly as possible I would tell him to stay away from dark streets and strange people, bars, etc… tell him to run every night so that when an attacker is in front of him he can use the best defense possible and turn around and run like hell. Teaching a student a few quick tehcniques is as bad as some of these “Self-Defense” prgrams I see, they are going to get someone hurt and/or killed, and there is a good chance it could be your student. On top of this Jong, what sort of student would this be? Why is he in such a hurry? I she a bully? Is he that impatient, and if he is, is he really going to put in the time to learn the rest of the art?
Martial arts is the last line of defense in Self Defense in my opinion. I would spend time instilling in students who want it now, the skills that hopefully would not bring it to the martial part.
Old Jong
speaking as someone who is new to WT (I have experince in other styles) I have found by teaching the basics ie form posture plus Lat Sao/ Blitz Defence the school I go to have got it just about right (although nobody is perfect!). Talking to people in my class who have just started MARTIAL ARTS primarily want to learn to defend themselves, people who want to learn WING CHUN are more likely to accept the “classical” method as they would have more idea of what they are getting themselves in for.
Having read your posts for a long time I have no doubt you will get the balance right
regards
Peter
Red5Angel
I think I brought enough nuances throughout this thread to clearly demonstrate that there can be a certain focus on effectiveness and practicality in the beginning of a Wing Chun student’s formation without hurting him in the more suttle sides of our art.My students are not bullies or wanabe street brawlers but one of their concerns in learning a martial art is : Does it works?..And how long will it take me to be able to use it if needed?..This is my way and it is as legitimate as your’s or anybody’s. Don’t forget that Wing Chun was created just for one reason: To be fast to learn and effective.
Anyway,I would like very much to see you practicing in your club.I bet there is not so much a big difference between our respective Wing Chun…
How many years did Yip Man make his students wait, before he taught them to be “tough”?
Many months or years would you be willing or able to wait for “tough”, if your life depended on your fighting skill?
some thoughts
technical, or heart. Which is more important as a foundation?
At the end of the day, a martial art is simply a delivery system for your intent. It’s why good streetfighters don’t need technique, and why a lot of MA’s with “great technique” get cleaned up in the street. If you don’t have a good engine for you car, it doesn’t matter how sleek the body shape is.
We train our structures and our techniques so that we can pass along our intent with as little dilution as possible. A great technique is meaningless without the intent to use it, but having poor body structure/use will only hinder your own potential if you do have heart. They are intertwined, so they actually act as guide rails for improvement to everyone throughout their training. So IMO the difference becomes which question do you ask first? Not which one is more important. Neither is, it’s just a personal preference. If you’re diligent in your training, they’ll lead you along the same path anyways.
a) Can I apply this?
b) How can I refine this?
In my view, I ask application first because that’s what I have to bring to the system. The system shows me explicitly how to refine technique as I train, but the heart only comes from me.
And if that doesn’t getcha, then maybe this will. Technique is limited to physical contact, and at the end of it all, your intent should be making anyone drop hershey squirts into their shorts long before their raise their hands.
-BP-
Old Jong
That doesn’t sound bad. You’re showing them a way to gain confidence in the particular technique, is all.
I’ve had (not very, but) varied kinds of experiences with WC. The current school de-emphasizes tan= this, bong= that, etc. thinking. Which is good, but incredibly detailed. Sometimes I just want a ‘simple’ answer. My taste
I suppose we could do a mathematical justification for it all, what do you think? :rolleyes:
I’ll bite:
Take the set of all techniques (@ infinity, sure…) :A
compared to the set of all ‘practical moves’ (@ infinity:confused: ):B
And we’d get A>B where A is defined as the ‘greater infinity’ by virtue of details. 
:eek: So you just start at B and go to A, and others say ‘find your own B’
But I like burnsypoo’s answer more…
Don’t forget that Wing Chun was created just for one reason: To be fast to learn and effective.
Old Jong, from reading many, but not all, of the posts on this thread I’d assume that WC is fragile(if root, structure etc is off it can’t work), rigid, difficult to learn and even harder to make street ready. But that’s just my outsiders opinion.
BTW OJ, I agree with your teaching method, it’s the same one my JJJ sensei used. While most of my JJJ skills are gone, I can still execute those practical techniques he taught all students in our first six months of training.
Re: Old Jong
Originally posted by {i^(
I’ve had (not very, but) varied kinds of experiences with WC. The current school de-emphasizes tan= this, bong= that, etc. thinking. Which is good, but incredibly detailed. Sometimes I just want a ‘simple’ answer. My taste
The obvious solution is to find a school that suits your taste. That’s what I did.
I feel I demonstrated far more respect to my former teachers and classmates by politely and graciously excusing myself than by a) placing my demands or expectations on them, b) telling them what or how to teach or implying as much, or c) asking them to alter their conception of their art to suit my fancy. Or worse, d) sticking it out and nurturing frustration or anger with which to torture my teachers or classmates.
Wishing that people would be or behave in a certain way is one thing. Putting expectations on them to do so in order to suit my tastes is something else.
Furthermore, when I occupy myself in considering all the shortcomings of others, especially those who try to help me, there is this dang little gnawing thing reminding me that, as a student and learner, I have plenty of shortcomings that probably frustrate Hades out of them too.
To this day I remain extremely grateful to each and every one of my former teachers and mentors. Not a one of them ever “owed” me anything, yet they were generous in sharing their art, their time, and themselves.
Despite having found something that suits me better technically, physically and conceptually, I also remain grateful for everything I learned directly or indirectly through the process of their guidance and sharing. Yes, even the stuff I disagree with, as it provided me with an opportunity to learn.
As an adult, I have never assumed that my learning, education or growth is anyone’s responsibility but my own, nor that anyone in particular owes me anything. [Except maybe a little peace and quiet now and then.] That no doubt colors my perspective on a great many issues, including this one. This is, at least in my mind, completely consistent with the notion that “having choices is a good thing” in Wing Chun as in other areas of life.
Then again, I’ll be about a hundred years old soon, so maybe this notion of “personal responsibility” is just old-fashioned. Kids these days. :rolleyes:
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Does it works?..And how long will it take me to be able to use it if needed?..
You said earlier you teach your students to throw good hard punches on the street from the begening. Doing a puch correctly using structure is not an easy thing that can be accomplished overnight, im still trying to et the alignment right before i even think about power. Most students, including myself, finish the punch movement with overt amounts of muscle. Teaching how to use structure is a contradictary powergeneration method compared to muscle.
KJ
Not exactly sure where all that came from.
I’m not placing demands upon my teachers to alter what they’re doing, or their art, just saying that “sometimes, I just want a ‘simple’ answer”.
No offense to be found in that statement.