Balls, Middle or Heel?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Now Ive been training for just under 4 years now and just started to get a little obsessed about when I’m doing the turning/shifting whether I’m doing it on my balls, middle or heel of the foot.

Until recently I’ve never taken much notice of which part of the foot I shift on but feel it has quite a bearing on your positioning and centre of gravity. For example shifting on the balls of your feet moves you off your centre line more than it would if you shifted just on the heels.

Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web which is quite interesting.

“Turning on the heels maintains the most stable position. The heels are the direct link between the body and the floor; they receive the full weight of the body, unlike other parts of the foot. This makes them the most logical pivot for the body. If one turns on the toes or the center of the foot the whole body will swing off the center axis”

“shifting on the toes or center of the foot throws the body off its primary axis, promoting a loss of balance. Also, if one turns with the toes, they support the body weight and there is nothing left to control balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance”

Now I really donn’t know if there is a linage issue or just a case of your own personal body dynamics..shorther legs and feet etc. But I wondered if others are concious of how they are shifting and if they have been trained this way?

Regards

2

Unfortunately, this is a dead issue. While you’ve been somewhat obsessed with this shifting thing - a lot of people have lost loved ones due to wars waged.

There are lots of arguments for AND against all shifting ideas…and I think that I (mostly) agree with all of them.

I started shifting on the heel, moved to Kidney1/Middle and then back to heel. Shifting is a good thing to practice to understand momentum of force when swung side to side or while throwing a force such as a horizontal elbow.

BUT! I don’t get all caught up in all the ‘divisions’ anymore of shifting, height of my Tan Sau. Because at the end of the day - whatever comes out when I spar is whatever comes out when I spar!

Enjoy your training,
CTK

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I shift on turn on balls of my feet. I find it gives me more control while shifting especially if I am using my shift to turn my opponents force off or jerk them out of their foundation. But turning on heels present a problem with those who have extreme forward pressure. Its easy to fall backwards or stumble by shifting that way if someone uses forward pressure to uproot you. With the balls of my feet my moves are quicker and more swift. But at first it was not easy. I had to practice many times before I got it right. I have been doing it for years. So When i shift my body automatically adjust and corrections are made instantly. I feel balanced and the transition is smooth.

But I notice this one guy who shifts on heels. He always seems to loose balance or his legs don’t seem to be aligned correctly most of the time he shifts.

But I think its just which ever you practice the most will become second nature to you. An eventually you will be able to handle the balance and structure once you gain skill in that form of turning.

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Thanks for the replies I guess the key is like you say what ever you do after practice it will become second nature to comfortable to you. I think uncounciously I was also shifting on the balls of my feet because it felt easier to deal with a strong oncoming force as, in effect, you are shifting more off the cental axis where the force is headed.

Last night I was trying to shift via the heels and felt really wired for me. I think I may give the Kidney1 area a try as a half way house.

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[QUOTE=hpclub;967605]Thanks for the replies I guess the key is like you say what ever you do after practice it will become second nature to comfortable to you. I think uncounciously I was also shifting on the balls of my feet because it felt easier to deal with a strong oncoming force as, in effect, you are shifting more off the cental axis where the force is headed.

Last night I was trying to shift via the heels and felt really wired for me. I think I may give the Kidney1 area a try as a half way house.[/QUOTE]

How does your Sifu say to shift?

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I turn on my heels when I’m changing a bridged angle. I sidestep/turn or shuffle sideways/turn more on my toes during unbridged moments. This isn’t a hard and fast rule, it’s just what I’ve observed in myself so far.

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lol not to sure actually but just checking some vids and it looks like its through the middle..

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I shift on the balls of my feet and frankly, I don’t see how you can do it any other way. If you shift on your heels, then your toes have to raise a little bit off the ground. One little push and you’re down! If you shift on the balls of your feet, your heels come up a little bit, but then you’ve got some give in case someone pushes you. I know it varies from school to school, but my sifu has always taught to shift on the balls of your feet while raising your heel just enough to take the brakes off and move. You can move way faster this way and with better balance.

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for me, personally, it depends on the shift/transition. i use the balls for most, but there are instances where ill shift/pivot on my heel. i guess the question may be dependant on exactly what you are talking about.

example:

turn back kick, ball..

roundhouse, ill shift/rotate my lead foot on the heel. but not always…depending on the roundhouse kick

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depends on ur lineage. different lineages do it differently.

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shifting

This is what i was told by my sifu. I have tested it several times and it makes good sense. I suggest that you all test it against a wall bag and make your own decision.

It really depends on what you are using your shifting for that determines the way you do it. If you are using it for wing chun(correctly) then you are using the whole foot but mainly focusing on shifting on the heels. Meaning, you foot is flat on the ground(for the most part) with at least the middle kidney point and the heel on the ground. The toes can lift some what but you don’t want to lift the balls as that will disrupt your balance and someone that is quite skilled can knock you back.

The reason you would use the heel is the fact that in wing chun you never just move without attacking. That would be considered wasted movement and that goes against the simultaneous attack/defense as well as economy of movement both of which WC is famous for. Also, moving from the heels throws your weight(power) forward and since WC fights while facing the opponent, this movement from the heel is the most effective.

Shifting on the balls of the foot throws the weight backwards and only works in certain situations but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.

Now make sure that the direction of the toes are changing and that the heel is in the same spot. Otherwise you are not doing it correctly. Technically, all shifting is using the middle of the foot but more for keeping the connection to the ground and not so much for shifting. The ball or the heel is used for the shifting and the middle is touching at all times(for the most part) becuase without the connection the power and balance is lost and the shifting changes from a movement with combative potential to a beautiful spinning movement from ballet(which has it’s own combative potential but not in the kung fu way).

I hope this helps. ;D

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[QUOTE=ittokaos;967638]…but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.
[/QUOTE]

he is actually talking about turning/spinning

in my style we are on the balls of our feet when we shift/turn

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[QUOTE=hulkout;967620]I shift on the balls of my feet and frankly, I don’t see how you can do it any other way. If you shift on your heels, then your toes have to raise a little bit off the ground. One little push and you’re down! If you shift on the balls of your feet, your heels come up a little bit, but then you’ve got some give in case someone pushes you. I know it varies from school to school, but my sifu has always taught to shift on the balls of your feet while raising your heel just enough to take the brakes off and move. You can move way faster this way and with better balance.[/QUOTE]

I agree I found the same thing my self. When hitting a heavy bag or wall bag or person with some weight. I found using the heels will unsteady your balance. I tested the heels along time ago. An If the person is rushing in while you are punching they can send your force back to you even though you may hit their body. The force will send you back on your hips to where your balls come off the ground. The thing I like about using the balls is foward spring you get when you step forward and connect with your structure. It makes a nice dispersement of weight and energy in one unit of motion.

[QUOTE=Pacman;967681]he is actually talking about turning/spinning

in my style we are on the balls of our feet when we shift/turn[/QUOTE]

We do the same thing too…

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I don’t think ‘blanket’ statements can be made like they were about any type of shifting.

  1. It was said that you CAN’T shift on the heels when there’s any forward pressure.

  2. It was also said that you’d have to raise your toes and that would be bad.

Responses:

  1. I take your forward pressure and it goes into my elbow structure, through my hip, into the heel and then the ground. No different than where your pressure goes, except that wherever your weight is (K1, ball)…your weight goes there.

  2. Only beginners of the heel shift raise their toes up awkwardly like cutting the back edge of a snowboard. The shift doesn’t come from raising up the toes…it comes from the waist and then from the abduction/adduction of my legs. Again…no different than any other shift. Also, I can very well lean right forward while shifting on my heels!

Best,
CTK

15

The reason you would use the heel is the fact that in wing chun you never just move without attacking. That would be considered wasted movement and that goes against the simultaneous attack/defense as well as economy of movement both of which WC is famous for. Also, moving from the heels throws your weight(power) forward and since WC fights while facing the opponent, this movement from the heel is the most effective.

Shifting on the balls of the foot throws the weight backwards and only works in certain situations but mainly in styles that use spinning to attack all sides. Since WC uses stepping instead of spinning, this type of movement is not needed.

I can’t really agree with this. If you REALLY want to move forward fast and with power, you need to have the calf muscles engaged, not possible when shifting on your heels. You only get pushed back by going on the balls of your feet if your COG is behind them - otherwise, you get driven forward, and much faster.

If moving forward from the heels was the most effective way to drive forward, Hussein Bolt would sprint like that, and quite obviously he doesn’t.

An old boxing maxim is “The balls of the feet are the accellerator, the heels the brakes”.

I don’t think ‘blanket’ statements can be made like they were about any type of shifting.

What he said.

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Good responses Kenton, I agree :slight_smile:

For me pivoting and the drills associated with it are strictly a training thing, not too be used as it is in training during application. What are we training when pivoting? Bacially we are learning how to connect to the ground, have a solid base, and to keep our centerlines or center axis steady (not swaying side to side). The biggest difference between Wing Chun and other striking methods is that for us we are a “connected” method of striking. This means for the most part when we strike or defend, there is going to be a physical connection between my body and my opponents. We don’t strike over/around an object but rather thru it, and to acheive success with this you’d better learn how to have a connected base and structure so that your ability to handle rebound forces and energy is strong. Our elbows are down because this is a more stable structure to absorb energy into our own structure, plus it allows us to gather power from the ground and our legs into our strikes and upper body.

Now regarding the heel/ball/K1 thing, with the heel pivoting there is little to no swaying side to side of our own center axis or spine. When you sway side to side your traveling in the wrong direction, sideways, not forward. For beginners the pivoting movement is large, as one gets used to it and they learn to use the ground power, everything gets smaller and tighter. Eventually you need very little pivots to provide great power to your upper body, for striking, pushing, turning your opponent or accepting their forces upon your own structure. A good drill is to stand neutral with a partner facing you the same way, form a x arm guard with one another connecting at each others wrists, your partner will slowly exert a strike towards your centerline, what you want to do is a slight wu sau action, accepting his force upon your centerline with a feeling that it is going to push you over, at this moment you pivot in the right direction (if your right arm is forward, you would pivot to face right, feet pointing right). The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

I agree with Kenton, the pivot is from the hip and knee’s as well, not from the feet turning side to side.

James

P.S. We pivot FROM the heel, not ON the heel, as the latter would imply our weight is back, when it’s not.

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[QUOTE=sihing;967769]Good responses Kenton, I agree :slight_smile:

The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

Thanks for this but how would this fit in with the principle of not using force against foce. I accept it is still diverting a strike but playing devils advocate if you shifted on the balls would this not present less strength being used and a greater angle to then work with?

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[QUOTE=sihing;967769]

The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

Thanks for this but how would this fit in with the principle of not using force against foce. I accept it is still diverting a strike but playing devils advocate if you shifted on the balls would this not present less strength being used and a greater angle to then work with?

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[QUOTE=sihing;967769]
Now regarding the heel/ball/K1 thing, with the heel pivoting there is little to no swaying side to side of our own center axis or spine. When you sway side to side your traveling in the wrong direction, sideways, not forward. … If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

…

P.S. We pivot FROM the heel, not ON the heel, as the latter would imply our weight is back, when it’s not.[/QUOTE]

Hey James, et al,

After a few years doing heel shifting, a year of K1 and then back to heel, I just want to comment on the whole ‘swaying’ thing. Clearly: It’s a selling point for heel shifting.

When you shift on K1…you sink, too.

The way I look at it, is that heel shifting is more suited to a more ‘erect’ body structure. It also makes things more mobile and ‘lighter’ on the feet.

When my Sifu and I engage in Chi Sau, I can’t move him. He shifts on K1 and really gets low into his stance. He throws me away with his lower centre of gravity, etc. We’ve discussed things and he knows his mobility is sacrificed for this, but he enjoys the new power K1 has given him through his research.

So that is why I said we can’t make blanket statements about other shifting methods.

Because:

  1. Others think that heel shifting ‘puts you on your heals’ and you can’t develop/yield to any forward pressure. Us heel shifters know they’re wrong.

  2. Others think that ball shifting makes you sway and that you move out of the way of the force instead of yielding to it as you described. Those ball shifters know what they’re doing. They’re sinking and compensating no different than how us heel shifters are by ‘leaning forward’ or rather: NOT putting all of our weight on our heels.

You can see where I’m going with this. K1 is no different. Talking to an ‘old’ Moy Yat practitioner and he tells me they were taught to shift the whole foot - so…the centre…or…K1 if you will…but was never officially taught K1 or anything…just to shift the whole foot…and then…somewhere along the way…us lineage folk are doing heel shifting.

Andrew’s quote about the boxing maxim makes so much sense after studying the whole “side-back-step-with-Jum-WSL-approach.” You step back, put your heel into the ground like a pike (the brake) and start firing punches off the Jum!

Best,
CTK

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[QUOTE=hpclub;967784][QUOTE=sihing;967769]

The result should be that your partners strike was forced off line away from you, but your wu sau is still pointed towards his center. If you pivot on the ball of the foot, it would mean that you moved away instead of his strike moving away, which IMO means you gave your center to you opponent.

Thanks for this but how would this fit in with the principle of not using force against foce. I accept it is still diverting a strike but playing devils advocate if you shifted on the balls would this not present less strength being used and a greater angle to then work with?[/QUOTE]

I think they should rephrase that saying, and replace the word force with strength. Force against force is always present in combat. If someone exerts force on your arm, do you always have to run away from it? If so, does that follow the priniciple of using efficiency to deal with something? Instead of running away from force, it is possible to accept that force, channelling it thru your body to absorb, dissolve or redirect it. To me that is more efficient than stepping, avoiding it. I’ve done a method of WC that did that, and although it has it’s place (everything does), I concentrate now on what I described above. This does not mean that I “can’t” step as well, but that happens on it’s own, and not thru thought. I might have to retreat, but within my retreat is an attacking going forward mindset and body feel.

There is always strength present when you fight, there’s no way around it. The thing is you can’t match strength for strength with guys larger than you, if you do your abilities are limited to those that are weaker than you. What I like about WC is that it teaches you the full potential of total body unity and total body strength. If you are just using your arm, shoulder muscles and I am using my leg muscles, who has the advantage? The training makes a person stronger than they normally would be, due to good body mechanics and structure, combined with their natural muscular strength.

Good angle is present as well with the drill I described, it’s gained from making the other guy miss instead of moving yourself. All good WC provides useage of angles in their training and application.

James