I have seen this a few times and would like to open it back up. It would seem to me the best way to turn would be flat footed, to keep your root. For example, we learn that our root is with our bubbling well, a place just behind the balls of the feet but not quite in the middle. Anyway, it would seem that you would want to stay connected at all times and to turn on the heels or the toes would break this connection right?
See my reply
Hello,
See my reply under Question for Sihing73. You are stating a very common opinion and many people adhere to it. I am one of those who does not quite agree. I would be interested in learning how, exactly, the weight or root of the body ends up being centered at the K-1, Bubbling Well, or center of the foot. The leg is physically connected at the heel and when standing if you drew a plum line down the body it would seem that the heel is the point where the weight ends up. I am not saying that putting weight on the center and even turning on center can not work. I just don’t agree that this is where our root ends up “physically”.
Peace,
Dave
The leg is physically connected at the heel and when standing if you drew a plum line down the body it would seem that the heel is the point where the weight ends up.
With your knees locked?
The leg is physically connected at the heel and when standing if you drew a plum line down the body it would seem that the heel is the point where the weight ends up. I am not saying that putting weight on the center and even turning on center can not work. I just don’t agree that this is where our root ends up “physically”.
Have you ever seen a tripod? Like a human, its center of gravity is not directly over any of its legs.
but respectfuly sihing…
while that plum line might go to the heels while standing up “straight” does it not move forward a bit with the knees bent?
we teach the “root to the bubbleing well” idea, and that either comeing up on the toes or down to the heels is a “bad” idea.
now haveing droped two cents into this thread i’ll go check out “questions fo sihing73” 
ah you did adress that, of course - here is a link to “questions”
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8901
in our in class disscusions on turning we found that turning on the heels provided better stability, but tended to sacrifice mobility, something we greatly desired. you will not the quote marks around “bad” this is becase its not how we learn to control our root, so when someone is coming up on thier toes or leaning back on the heels we say they are “doing it wrong” from our perspective. however many schools root to the heel, or maybe even to the toe(!?) more power to 'em!
My view
Originally posted by [Censored]
With your knees locked?
Have you ever seen a tripod? Like a human, its center of gravity is not directly over any of its legs.
I try to never lock my knees. Always figured it was a bad idea plus unhealthy. If you lock your knees and stand for a length of time you may find yourself laying on the ground 
Maybe if I had three legs, like a Tripod I would agree more with you. However, since I have two legs I can’t realy relate my weight distribution to a Tripod. For that matter, if I had four legs like a Dog where would my weight be? Now if you look at creatures with two legs, which walk upright, tell me where the weight ends up? Go stand with your back against a wall and without leaning one way or the other tell me where you feel the weight end up. Is it at the heels or just slightly in front of the heels or is it closer to the center of the foot? Of course, if ones adopts various stances then the weight distribution can change. However in the basic YJKM stance I feel that the weight ends “physically” at the heels or just slightly in front.
OdderMensch,
When I take up the stance with the knees forward I move my hips slightly forward and then sink. My weight does not reside over my knees but is dictacted by the position of my hips. Since my hips are over my feet in line with the heels this is where I feel the weight sink and connect to the ground. Now it is possible that we perform the stance differently. The Plum line would go from the head down so it would only deviate if some point on the line was changed. If you perform the stance with some part of the body moved forward then the “plum line” may end up nearer the center of the foot. However, is your body still one unit or has its structure been broken at some point? I guess the question I have is where are your hips in relation to the feet?
Peace,
Dave
BTW; Didn’t I say most people would not agree with me? 
Hey Sihing, it probably is, like most things, a matter of opinion, although I will have to go with the other guys on this CoG thing. We do our stance as deep as we can get it, this brings you to rest comfortably on your bubbling well. I can see where if your stance isnt as deep, your point of rest would be ****her back along your foot naturally.
The only reason in my opinion, that turning flat would be better, is that you have more contact with the floor. no only do you have some play to go forward or backward, but you have a more solid, or seemingly so, connection to the ground.
Okay
Hello Redangel,
The points you made about greator surface area are similiar to what I said under the Question for Sihing73 thread.
I can agree that differing stances will change ones cog. However, I am not sure that I agree that a deeper stance will necessarily move the cog forward. I still would tend to argue that the placement of the hips is a major factor in determining your cog.
Thats all for now.
Peace,
Dave
When standing, the CoG is towards the rear of the foot, but when you bend the knees, it shifts forwards. When the knees bend, there is a horizontal and a vertical movement contributed by both the shin and the thigh. The knees do not just bend in one dimension (vertical). When you do the plumb line experiment, keep the plumb line vertical throughout the sinking motion and you will see that it starts back but moves forwards proportional to the horizontal component.
Think of it this way: your shin and thigh start like this | when standing up. When you bend the knees, the shin looks like this / and the thigh looks like this \ (viewed with target facing towards the right). Using the knee as a reference, you will see that the knee moves forward (horizontal).
| -> \ the gap represents the knee joint
| -> /
The key is the pelvis. When you roll it under to straighten the spine the CoG will move forward when combined with the sink. If you don’t roll it forward, then yes you can sink straight down and keep the weight over the heels. The bad thing, though, is that the spine is not straight.
We also use the tripod analogy, not because we are tripods, but because it helps project the intention and CoG forward towards the opponent.
Dzu, aspiring ASCII artist
Interesting
Hi Dzu,
Hmm interesting idea that the moving forward of the pelvis forces the cog to move forward. This is something I have got to visit with you in person about. I move my pelvis forward and sink. I feel the weight drop to my ankles/heel area. I can shift the position slightly and put the weight over the center of my foot. However, I feel better with the weight on my heels. I have been able to resist more force from the front with the weight on the heels than closer to center. Of course, there could be a minor adjustment that would correct this, in your way of thinking . I am still playing with the stance and probably will be till I die. If nothing else this topic inspires thought rather than imitation which serves a fine purpose, IMHO.
FWIW when one shifts or steps then the cog has to change. In this instance the “tripod analogy” makes sense as the lead foot acts as a brace much like the legs of a tripod. So in a sense I would tend to agree or argue that in YJKM the cog is over the heels but if one turns and shifts then the cog can shift to over the center of the foot or even off of the foot, lol!!
Peace,
Dave
Well, standing in my office, I stood up, got in stance, pushed my pelvis forward to straighten the spine and felt…
First the weight naturally sinks to the feet, until the stance gets deeper, then the weight rolls forward. this is probably due to structure but it is still there at my bubbling well.
How deep do you go?
Hi Redangel,
Since this is promoting thought I was wondering how deep do you go? Perhaps I will try it and go a little deeper and see if we are on the same wavelength. I am always willing to explore new things and even admit if I am wrong, though that never happens :rolleyes:
Seriously, I think people in my work-place are starting to think I am nuts, lol. I was in the server room practicing a single leg stance and our network admin walked in on me. Imagine trying to explain why I am standing next to his precious servers while balancing on only one leg, lol. Luckily he used to do ma as well and he is even interested in the Wing Chun and Silat.
The bottom line is that you can make different things work provided you train and work on them. If you don’t practice then even the best technique will not work.
Peace,
Dave
LOL! I get caught all the time walking through the hall while trying hand positions, or in the config or server room doing my forms at lunch!
I go as deep as I can on my stance, we stress it to help develop root. Obviously this isnt the fighting method, just the forms and drills. I think resting on the heels is mor enatural, like I said, the weight shifts natural there when you tuck in your pelvis. Staying there though makes me uncomfortable, that could be attributed to my training though.
Bottom line is a good, I will have to go with that!
Hi Dave,
When I sink, I just relax and let myself ‘melt’ into the floor. My reasoning is that efficiency is King, so ‘forcing’ myself down is opposite of what I want. I relax and then let gravity do the work.
I think once flexibility has been achieved through constant training it’s easy to sink down to our own individual biomechanical limits (determined by bone length, hip and pelvis structure, etc.) without forcing things. This is how deep I go, which is probably different than how low you go (unless we have the same body type and dimensions).
When I sink, I feel my feet FIRMLY planted. I do feel a compression at the ankles, but I think this is natural since the weight of the body is settling down. IMHO the best way to check is to receive some pressure so you can get feedback.
I agree that the CoG moves when we turn or shift. I try to use this movement and actively shift into my opponent’s CoG. If I break their ability to stand and balance, I have effectively broken their ability to generate power and move. Other lineages like to shift or turn to overextend the opponent and pull him off balance. Both methods have merit and the body structure is usually built from the ‘ground up’ to support this philosophy. That’s probably why it’s difficult to make things work between different lineages without a deep understanding of both.
Dzu
Enjoying this
Hi Dzu,
While we may appraoch things different I think we are both interested in the most efficient method of applying what we learn. I am re-reading Roberts structure tests and will be playing around with them, see you got me curious
You make a good point about different lineages. I often find that I revert to old habits even though I am striving to adhere to my current Sifus approach. Old habits are hard to break, lol. However, I do believe that with a firm foundation and exposure to other methods one can discover the best approach for them. I take what suits my purpose and incorporate it into my own personal Wing Chun. Sometimes, I go back to the drawing board and make adjustments based on more exposure. I am currently making some changes to my stance, but still turn on the heels, lol, based on one of my Sihings experience. He has a background in internal arts and has brought some concepts about stance and structure/rooting etc. to the table. Now I am digesting this meal. It will be interesting to see where it leads me.
Peace,
Dave
However, since I have two legs I can’t realy relate my weight distribution to a Tripod. For that matter, if I had four legs like a Dog where would my weight be?
When you stand up straight on both legs, you have four significant contact points. Unless your feet are completely flat, you will be connecting with the ball and the heel.
Just as you don’t see many dogs walking around on two legs, you won’t see many people holding up the balls of their feet when standing or walking. It is not efficient.
When building a tripod, we place the CoG between the legs; this allows for optimal weight distribution and stability. This is not opinion, it is mathematics.
Naturally, you can move your CoG to the heel, if you so desire.
And dogs can be trained to walk upright. But why bother?
Points of contact
Originally posted by [Censored]
When you stand up straight on both legs, you have four significant contact points. Unless your feet are completely flat, you will be connecting with the ball and the heel.
Hello,
By this analogy weight on the center of the foot is not a natural position. You indicate there are four contact points and state they are the balls and heels. Where then does the center of the foot come into play? Unless one is flat footed :rolleyes:
Don’t take too much offense I am just having a little bit of fun.
Peace,
Dave
Pivoting on the feet
To turn the body by pivoting on the feet is sometimes referred to as, “Switching the feet”.
To change or switch on the heels is to turn the body by pivoting on the heels. This can also be done on the balls of the feet and by alternating in order to snake forward or backward without lifting the feet. There are different advantages to doing to each. To create power for striking, deflecting, or uprooting your opponent switch on the heels. To change the angle of attack or to move your core switch on the balls of the feet. This can be very
important when weapons come in to play. By alternating the switching on the balls and the heels you can move forward or backward 12-15 inches without lifting the feet. This is done
without raising or lowering the body and is very sneaky. These actions are shown in SLT in the opening of the horse, Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma. The mechanics of switching is then worked and developed in the practice of Chum Kil.
While some people switch both feet simultaneously, others switch one foot first and then the other. Done quickly, it appears as though both feet switch at the same time. Done slower as when uprooting an opponent, the movement is more obvious. I do both, and all combinations depending on what is needed.
Why the different switching? What happens to the relationship between you and your opponent when the different types of switching occur?
Switching on the balls of the feet creates distance. Which when needed is very important but it also moves your pressure or strike away from the opponent. By switching on the balls
of the feet you will not trap as effectively or hit as hard. The advantage of switching simultaneously is that it is extremely quick, which is terrific for fast hitting. This is important, because this is where much of speed comes from in Wing Chun. This is where the switch and the hip come into play with the final power. Without this, the punch will not be a powerful punch. It will lack something very important, and it will feel much less painful and debilitating. A disadvantage in switching both feet simualtainously is that if the opponent applies pressure at the half way point of the movement, you can be disrupted.
Not so, when switching one foot first and then the other. This way gives you incredible traction, connection, and drilling. This is the way to heave someone over with very little effort. But, here is one of the most important things. So important is this principal, that it is at the core of higher levels. It is the thing that must be mastered in everything in martial art; the ability to cause tension in your opponent while losing tension in yourself. To me, this is one of the most exciting things in my personal art. It is the reason that good wing chun practitioners are able to so easily overpower bigger and larger men, jam and trap them like they were children, not take rebound in his punch or trap. If you switch on the balls of your feet, you will create tension in yourself when you touch your opponent. If he is coming in, you have given him the handle. Conversely, if you had switched on the heels, you will have driven into him with your body power originating from the floor. This is what brings the power from ground to the hip and, their synergy, adding greatly to the power and effective penetration. There will be no unnecessary tension in your arms,
shoulder and body to give him the handle to disrupt you.
It’s a funny thing, but it’s the small details like this that really make the difference.
Danny T
By this analogy weight on the center of the foot is not a natural position. You indicate there are four contact points and state they are the balls and heels. Where then does the center of the foot come into play? Unless one is flat footed
By looking at a footprint in the sand, you will discover that the center does not literally bear much weight. When people talk about turning from the center, I think they are actually talking about a shifting turn, where the CoG gradually moves forwards on the foot.
Don’t take too much offense I am just having a little bit of fun.
Not offended at all.
IMHO turning from the center means initiating the shift or turn with one’s CoG, not necessarily the center of the foot.
Also, the K1/Bubbling Well is not located at the center of the foot, but just behind the ball of the foot. This places it about 1/3 the length of the foot, as measured from the toes, rather than in the middle of the arch. Consult your local accupuncture chart for a graphical representation.
Dzu
Enjoying this
Hello Guys,
Censored,
This is getting more interesting. If I am understanding correctly the “center” being referred to is not the actual center of the foot. I will concede that the K-1 point is not located dead center on the foot. It is indeed closer to the Balls. So now I am wondering if when one says they sink and root to center are they truly doing that or are they in reality sinking closer to the front of the foot?
Dzu,
I agree with you about the initiation of the turn or shift not being with the foot/feet. I have always felt that ones shift should originate at about the level of the hips or waist. The feet simply turn to keep abreast of what the body is doing.
Guys,
While we may not agree on some things, I must admit that I find this conversation interesting. If nothing more it is leading me to contemplate various approaches to weight placement and whether a turn on the center is in reality referring to the center of the foot or something else. Keep it up as I would prefer to explore rather than debate per se. At least we seem to be in somewhat of an agreement that center may not mean what most people think it does
Peace,
Dave