Balls, Middle or Heel?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=couch;967790]Hey James, et al,

After a few years doing heel shifting, a year of K1 and then back to heel, I just want to comment on the whole ‘swaying’ thing. Clearly: It’s a selling point for heel shifting.

When you shift on K1…you sink, too.

The way I look at it, is that heel shifting is more suited to a more ‘erect’ body structure. It also makes things more mobile and ‘lighter’ on the feet.

When my Sifu and I engage in Chi Sau, I can’t move him. He shifts on K1 and really gets low into his stance. He throws me away with his lower centre of gravity, etc. We’ve discussed things and he knows his mobility is sacrificed for this, but he enjoys the new power K1 has given him through his research.

So that is why I said we can’t make blanket statements about other shifting methods.

Because:

  1. Others think that heel shifting ‘puts you on your heals’ and you can’t develop/yield to any forward pressure. Us heel shifters know they’re wrong.

  2. Others think that ball shifting makes you sway and that you move out of the way of the force instead of yielding to it as you described. Those ball shifters know what they’re doing. They’re sinking and compensating no different than how us heel shifters are by ‘leaning forward’ or rather: NOT putting all of our weight on our heels.

You can see where I’m going with this. K1 is no different. Talking to an ‘old’ Moy Yat practitioner and he tells me they were taught to shift the whole foot - so…the centre…or…K1 if you will…but was never officially taught K1 or anything…just to shift the whole foot…and then…somewhere along the way…us lineage folk are doing heel shifting.

Andrew’s quote about the boxing maxim makes so much sense after studying the whole “side-back-step-with-Jum-WSL-approach.” You step back, put your heel into the ground like a pike (the brake) and start firing punches off the Jum!

Best,
CTK[/QUOTE]

Hi Kenton,

It’s all semantics really in the end. One can not be so anal as to stick to one principle or idea, and not appreciate anothers method. Heel/Ball or K1 pivoting, all has it’s place and IMO is just a basic training method of the system, it depends on what you want to do with it, and what you want to get out of the training method. For me, now at this moment I recommend pivoting from the heel, that can change in the future, who know’s. There are no pronouncements that it is the “best” method and all other ways suck. It is good to have the ability to not have to move when force is exerted on you, as well as having the ability to move as well. With your Sifu, he’s probably bigger than you and with more experience he can accept your force without having to move, he is doing what is natural for that situation which is exactly what WC teaches us, it may change when dealing with other people.

For me it’s all training to gain a skill or attribute, whether or not I will ever use it is another thing, I first have to get into a fight and that hasn’t happened for a long long time:) I know one thing for sure, the last thing on my mind will be Heel/Ball or K1 pivoting, lol.

James

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Hung Fa works on basic principals when turning. In a forward stance you should have the majority of weight on the rear leg. This allows for use of the lead foot to kick and gives you a solid platform. As you turn, you need to shift the majority of weight onto the new rear leg, so the way I do this is to force the ball down to support the rear leg weight and pivet on the lead heal, using the rear foot to force the turn. I also use body shift. As I complete the turn, the majority of my weight shifts to the heel of the rear foot again.
Shifting and turning are quite different. If you go up on the balls of both feet, you are shifting. You lift the weight of the body up on the ball and shift the heels, which also makes the entire body shift from one spot to another as well as changing directions. Turning on the heels will keep the body in one place, but change the direction it is facing. Both can be done with pretty much the same speed if practiced, so I suppose it don’t matter much. The basic principals might not be as evident though. I really don’t think one can efficiently turn or shift on the middle part of the foot.

LCP

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the foot is a tripod…heel / ball/ out side edge…we move the foot heel toe small steps / shuffles to allow the heel to drive into the gtound to shift the lead foot, not drag it.
Simple physics, whatever you drive into the ground is coming back out :smiley: if you have good timing alignment, do drills to strike incoming bodies at the precise angles etc…:rolleyes: you can develop a good ko striking ability…the trick to hitting an incoming object is not to be rooted on the back foot but balanced between both with force generated from the = & opposite force idea Newton came up with…

shifting is done on the heels to maintain a constant axis line..like a revolving door , it spins freely as long as its axis is centered…we shift this revolving door on ‘tracks’ to allow us to turn and face as the exchanges happen, fluidly, balanced in motion …

small steps allow the heel to drive the quadriceps into the ground in an unbroken line of force , that can be channeled into the opponent, via a trapped elbow, strikes, jammed lan sao, elbows…etc…the connection is from alignment of the hips , knees…back up.

The alignment of the stance in counter striking is done during the basic seung ma - toi ma drills…the guy doing the counter striking jum sao as he angles off the tans line of entry , stops briefly in the 1/2 step stage to check feet, knees, hips , capable of reaching with two hands …continue to finish the test of the drill.

we adopt circle stepping to allow subtle balance shifts without committing our line of force to straight lines easily countered…small shifting steps with angling and movement to maintain the assault pressure/momentum.

Chum Kil teaches to turn on your axis line [ revolving door] as the sagittal plane [centerline] is turned only to face the direction of your attack and the position of the recipient of the attack, with tactical directions .iow ‘Facing’ . to face w ehave to have short steps with shifts and turns along our axis /centerlines to have quick ability to strike while facing and have the rear heel driving into the gound at the precise moment…timing is critical…the inch punch is used to prove this ‘moment’ . I adopt it to prove the strikes ability to deliver force…I ask the student to shift me 5-6 ft back from the contact point…many start with elbows out , so the energy goes sliding off my chest…then they try to do it again and balance is bad becasue they have to much weigh on the back foot so they knock themselves backwards…then with coaching to focus the points, stance, heel , elbows …it works ..add motion and attack angling in the chi-sao entry and counter angling drills and you begin to see simple it isnt, so we repeat the action 1000’s of times randomly from either side from either partner and others…

Not developing feeling, but striking with force in the ‘moment’ is it good or not :smiley: it can be amusing to ask someone to give you their best shot no blocking and they still cant move you … AND stop me from hitting them because their elbow positions are worthless…

the heel is the contact point for force but we can heel/toe to move…small steps 3" x 3"x 3" etc…allow the heel to be driven into the gound while delivering the ‘force’ out of the hand in a continuous ‘pressure hose’ along our cotact point. We can deliver a force with no gaps making it impossile for the recipient to regain their balance or counter us once they are turned or lose balance. Controlling people like this is hard and takes time.
I have used it in bar ‘events’ on numerous occasions that required a controlling force rather than a damaging fist…witnesses :wink: a bar full of witnesses !!! :smiley:

try to focus you mind on the point of contact as you trap guys , not the feet…if you imagine a constant pressure point at your hand and their arm then move the feet to maintain it you can channel the ‘unseen’ great force of the quads into the guy on the receiving end…

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think of it like squatting heavy weight, you can’t squat if your back is curved or if you are on your toes. you must keep the weight on the heels and drive the “pelvis” forward" while you “jack up” your opponent or else how can you handle his weight? this same principle applies to shifting.

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[QUOTE=ChinaBoxer;967976]think of it like squatting heavy weight, you can’t squat if your back is curved or if you are on your toes. you must keep the weight on the heels and drive the “pelvis” forward" while you “jack up” your opponent or else how can you handle his weight? this same principle applies to shifting.[/QUOTE]

Of course this is relevant to lift a weight on a vertical plane - not sure how it relates to an oncoming pressure.

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regardless of lineage… I’d say both methods have their purposes and proper times. To be quick and light on your feet you have to keep your weight on the balls of your feet, to dig in and push from the ground up you have to keep your weight on your heels. I say let function dictate your footwork more than lineage or argumentative theories.

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Never really paid that much attention at all, over the years it just started to fit properly.

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you can move lightly on all points of the foot , nobody says you have to drive the heel into the ground for no reason…like a certain guy who wrote a VT book and showed shuffling several feet one direction before turning and shuffling another direction LMFAO if it wasnt the funniest sequence of b&w photos…like being attacked by a geriatric in a parambulator… HAH …stand still Im coming after you ..shuffle shuffle :D:D:D:D shuffle.

we can move as we like to have mobility and ability to shift back and forth, etc…just stay balanced and let the training kick in.

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Development and application

A not uncommon problem : confusion arises from not distinguishing between development and application.

In development some drills are for internalizing key wing chun concepts- once done- in application you respond to the moment. IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri

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Just win baby!

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968201]Just win baby![/QUOTE]

Hard to do when your body doesn’t know how.

JR

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[QUOTE=sihing;968271]Hard to do when your body doesn’t know how.

JR[/QUOTE]

After four years, the OP’s body “knows how,” but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;968272]After four years, the OP’s body “knows how,” but he is getting hung up in the details. The goal is to win fights and not be a ridiculous pedant, if one remembers that all else is cream cheese as they say.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100’s if not 1000’s of miles apart from one another? Isn’t application a personal one on one thing?

James

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[QUOTE=sihing;968275]I totally agree with you here. IMO there is a difference between training and application.

On the forums here were are discussing training, the concept behind it and what we aim to achieve thru it. Usually discussions are detailed orientated to be able to communicate what we are trying to say to one another (which is failing miserably on this forum..). How is it possible to discuss application when you and I are 100’s if not 1000’s of miles apart from one another? Isn’t application a personal one on one thing?

James[/QUOTE]

I see application as a finite set of possibilities. Just as for boxing, there is a slugger, boxer, volume punchers, hybrid fighters and so on, so too do they exist in WCK or other striking arts. I feel like most people fit into 1 of X number of categories. Each categories comes with a different structure and a structure it is vulnerable to. Structure as Hendrick has pointed out prescribes particular techniques. Being as water to me means recognizing these situations and adapting structure accordingly.
Obviously no two fighters are exactly alike (usually), but these categories have seemed to emerged over time. This is the heart of situational fighting.

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So if some one says, Sifu do I pivot on the balls, flat, or heel, I say it depends on the structure that you chose. Are you flat-footed weight on the heel, flat-footed weight on whole foot, or on the balls of your feet? i.e. what is economical given the structure?

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Of course this is relevant to lift a weight on a vertical plane - not sure how it relates to an oncoming pressure.

I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can’t do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;968286]I agree, its more like pushing a car rather than squatting a heavy weight - try doing that on your heels.

And then we could discuss jump squats, which you can’t do very well just on your heels .. but neither type of squat is particularly relevant to the discussion IMO.[/QUOTE]

The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn’t really apply here. If I want to jump, I will squat down, plant from my heel, push up with my legs, and add on to at the end with a push from my calf muscles (simple explaination) which raises my heel off the ground, this is a different goal than using the heel concept in WC. We are talking vegetables here, you guys are talking fruits.

When I plant to recieve force, I will do so by planting it on the heel, doing so with a raised heel will mean your structure is unstable since the calf muscles will not be able to handle someone’s force coming into all by itself. To start the process of giving force out, I push from the heel (this stablilizes my structure, without doing that where does the force come from, am I optimizing it?) and can add to it by pushing off the ball of the foot as well, this is application stuff. In training, when learning it you do the basics, learn to plant the foot solidly, to be able to apply the structure in a rudimentary way. In application I can add to it all by lifting at the ball of the foot if I want to, as I am not so concerned with doing it perfect, text book like, but rather to get out of it all that I can. Also when the goal is to hit someone, it is a shorter movement, quicker as well, than pushing something that is heavy. When I practice poi pai, then I have to sit more and can use the heel first for rooting and raised heel for pushing someone out of their position. Pushing and Pulling are helping actions to set up favorable positions as needed.

James

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[QUOTE=hpclub;967574]Now Ive been training for just under 4 years now and just started to get a little obsessed about when I’m doing the turning/shifting whether I’m doing it on my balls, middle or heel of the foot.

Until recently I’ve never taken much notice of which part of the foot I shift on but feel it has quite a bearing on your positioning and centre of gravity. For example shifting on the balls of your feet moves you off your centre line more than it would if you shifted just on the heels.

Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web which is quite interesting.

“Turning on the heels maintains the most stable position. The heels are the direct link between the body and the floor; they receive the full weight of the body, unlike other parts of the foot. This makes them the most logical pivot for the body. If one turns on the toes or the center of the foot the whole body will swing off the center axis”

“shifting on the toes or center of the foot throws the body off its primary axis, promoting a loss of balance. Also, if one turns with the toes, they support the body weight and there is nothing left to control balance. Turning with the weight on the heels leaves the toes free, allowing them to assist in maintaining balance”

Now I really donn’t know if there is a linage issue or just a case of your own personal body dynamics..shorther legs and feet etc. But I wondered if others are concious of how they are shifting and if they have been trained this way?

Regards[/QUOTE]

I didn’t read the entire thread, just this first post, but fwiw I first learned to shift on the heel of the foot…later when I looked at other lineages I learned about using the middle of the foot.

To be honest, I’m thinking that no individual method is “correct” per say. It was taught one way or the other long ago, and as time passed…different students of the original method preferred and developed their own ideologies on shifting as well as everything else wing chun people argue about.

When its all said and done, don’t worry too much about it. Try it another way if you want, but stick with what works for you.

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The problem as I see it with your jumping squat example, is that the goal with the heel sitting is not to jump up with it, so your example doesn’t really apply here.

You must have missed the part where I said neither the squat (as brought up by Chinaboxer) nor jump squat was a good example, so thanks for backing me up on that one.

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Below is an extract of something I picked up from the web

Jeez, something you picked up off the web … obviously then it goes beyond argument.