heya,
where can i find some resource, pics and text about bagua sword on the net?
thanks
Checkout the post by Jiayo under Video Links on Emptyfower.forum:
video clips.
bagua deerhorns
http://www.jiayo.com/videos/bagua_deerhorns.mpg
bagua jian (straightsword)
http://www.jiayo.com/videos/bagua_jian.mpg
enjoy!
-b
check out this bagua sword
Fu Chen Sung:
others can be found at :
Check out the Fu pages. Some links there as well.
Marty
Master Lin Chaojin (disciple of Fu Chensung) told me that DaDao weighed THIRTY pounds. That is gongfu!
Buddy,
Please e-mail me at jingmo@jingmo.org concerning your Pa Kua sifu.
thanks a lot! 
Any more clips of bagua sword work? Any two person SWORD sets? Any fundamental cut training?
whitecrane
my favorite is those from the white crane institute,
(www.whitecraneinstitute.com)
this is another level!
whooops, this was intend to be a reply to “bagua sword” thread
I merged this thread with the crane thread you made by mistake.
more links for you
Also, check these threads at www.swordforum.com for more pictures:
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30295
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31751
Doug M
Here a Clip of an BaGua Big Dao demonstration on top of a table.
Peace
www.blacktaoist.com
wushu blade
The problem with this demonstration is that the sword is not real. It is a flimsy wushu toy that, I think, distracts more than educates. The real Bagua Dao is much heavier and would not move like a wushu version. What this does is give Chinese martial arts a bad image as well as give the wrong sort of education that such a demonstration would hope to achieve.
On the other hand, how many demonstrations are given with real swords? There are not many (or any), and that is very sad. Scott Rodell’s DVDs (www.grtc.org) and his latest book, Chinese Swordsmanship: The Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition, are a start in a more accurate direction. He uses an accurate wooden replica of a Qing-era jian in his DVDs but employs the real sword for pictorial demonstrations in his book.
Thank you for the link, for any link on the Internet can be helpful. But I think it says more about the state of Chinese swordsmanship when the “weapon” of choice for a public display is fake.
Doug M
Yo I put the clip up of the demonstration for people can see the characteristics of the BaGua Big Dao form forgive me for sharing. Its not my problem if the sword real or not, It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less.
The sword and Deer Hook knives in the first clips that was posted on this forum are not real, So I don’t understand the point you are trying to make. The weapons in the two clips are also WuShu made or should I say as you put it flimsy wushu toys. They sure in hell are not made for real combat.
Anyway thanks for your viewpont.
BT
Quick to Judgement?
Hi blacktaoist,
Don’t take it the wrong way. I never said anything about you; I said something about the demonstration in the video clip. I thanked you for the clip. You are needlessly taking my post personally.
In your second paragraph, you say you are confused but seem to answer your own question or wonderment. The problem with “It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less” is that “the characteristics of the BaGua Big Dao form” are not representative of real use with a Bagua Dao. The real sword weighs at least five pounds, and a practitioner would not use it the way it is used as demonstrated with a wushu toy.
To say that “[i]t just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less” is to devalue the demonstration itself, implying that a demonstration is not a serrious display of martial movement and skill. For some, this is true. Whenever I am given the honor to demonstrate a form for my school, though, I surely give it my all and use the more realistic weapons I have. It is never “just a demonstration.” I know that not everyone has an antique, but there are modern reproductions available that are at least close to the real things. But I am not attacking the person in the form anyway; I am commenting on the use of wushu tools in general.
I think you do understand my point, but don’t take it the wrong way.
Doug M
Don’t take it the wrong way.
I’m not. You don’t understand my writing style. I only posted my opinion.
In your second paragraph, you say you are confused but seem to answer your own question or wonderment. The problem with "It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less
You left out the whole paragraph I posted. What I write was:
Its not my problem if the sword real or not, It just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less.
Now I don’t see where I seem to be confused in the statement I posted. Because I 'm not asking you a question.
You write:
To say that “[i]t just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less” is to devalue the demonstration itself, implying that a demonstration is not a serrious display of martial movement and skill.
In my opinion a form demonstration is not the real thing, and I stand by my viewpoints. I met and encounter many individuals in my life of all ethnic groups that perform spectacular martial art forms demonstration that completely over whelmed people, but soon they try to utilize the martial function side of what they was demonstrating in real time they fall short big time!
The real sword weighs at least five pounds
Doug I’m totally aware of the real Big Dao and how much it weights. I have two real Big Dao myself, that was giving to me when I was training in Beijing China two years ago.
Anyway you write:
The real sword weighs at least five pounds, and a practitioner would not use it the way
In my opinion That depends on who you learned from, and the martial skill level of the BaGua practitioner utilizing the Dao. I encountered and trained with a few BaGua teachers that can easy use the real Dao the same as in the clip I posted. ****, I have footage of a Few BaGua practitiners doing the same movements in the clip I posted with the real Dao.
Doug I have to ask you, have you ever learned any Traditional Big Dao sets? Because I disagree with your statement. For starts the movement in the clip I posted, the BaGua player in the clip was demonstrating a basic movement that is apply in most Big Dao sets. The movement the player was demonstrating in the clip I posted was just sample chopping in four directions with the Dao in such a way with footwork, that the Dao circles the body as to create a protective shield.
There even one Big Dao set that is well practice in Beijing China today by most BaGua Zhang players called four directions. They name the form this, because of the chopping actions of the Dao blade in all four directions working together with the combination of the footwork Kou Bu (hooking step) and Bai Bu (swinging out step), which you can easy see in the clip I posted.
Again what the BaGua player is demonstrating in the clip is the basic chopping actions of the Dao blade in four directions. displaying the combination, or I should say characteristics of Dao & footwork together in combinations. (Coordination)
Now I do understand your point, and believe me I’m far from taking your viewpoints the wrong way.
Peace
BT:)
Peace
Doug
(The problem with this demonstration is that the sword is not real. It is a flimsy wushu toy that, I think, distracts more than educates. The real Bagua Dao is much heavier and would not move like a wushu version.)
I don’t think the sword detracts from the performance at all. To the trained eye you can see just what’s going on. A Wushu stylist could not have made that fake sword bend like it did. It’s just a testimony of that master’s power and control.
(What this does is give Chinese martial arts a bad image as well as give the wrong sort of education that such a demonstration would hope to achieve.)
What do you mean by that? China was probably the last culture to hang up their swords, outside Southeast Asia, to make way for the gun. I know for a fact that there where still Sword duals in Taiwan in the 50’s, so I’m sure that the people know the difference between a fake and a real sword. The demo was done in China for the Chinese. They know the difference between contemporary and traditional martial arts its part of their culture. The teachers themselves make that clear. Now as far as the west is concerned you might be right, but it wasn’t made for them. That clip was given to me years ago when a friend returned from China in the early 90’s, and it was 10yrs old then. Too few knew what Ba-Gua was aside from hearing about it at that time here.
(On the other hand, how many demonstrations are given with real swords?)
In privet? All the time. Depends on the teacher.
(I think it says more about the state of Chinese swordsmanship when the “weapon” of choice for a public display is fake.)
I disagree. I think it speaks of the state of the Government. There are many masters that have had their hands tied with the restrictions placed on them and their teachings. True seekers know the difference because they learn through seeking.
From the point of view that I get from you, you feel that because the sword is fake, the master must be fake as well and the duped student will go to him and learn fake things.
Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it’s the opposite. There have been many Ba-Gua masters that have been Wushu teachers. When they wanted to teach them some of the real, it was the majority of the student’s that only wanted the flash. Many masters lament over this.
(That “the characteristics of the BaGua Big Dao form” are not representative of real use with a Bagua Dao.)
This is wrong! Your statement I mean. The characteristics of any form are supposed to be representative of the true usage of that weapon. The form that was demonstrated was actually a small section of the true form, which is quite long. The technique of Chopping and slicing in 4 directions is common to all Ba-Gua Da Dao sets. The emphasis on Chopping or slicing depends on teacher and lineage.
(The real sword weighs at least five pounds, and a practitioner would not use it the way it is used as demonstrated with a wushu toy)
Now of course you would have to make adjustments because of the difference between the real and the fake blades, but what was demonstrated was real. I’m referring to his body alignment and whole body motion. He wasn’t twirling that sword with his arm but his whole body. That only comes from years of proper training. A Wushu sword feels disgusting in my hands but does that mean that I can’t demonstrate the real form? Not at all, My Da Dao is 5.5’ and weighs 6pds and change; I have footage of Ha Jin Bao doing a set with it. He’s moving so fast that you can hardly see the blade. In the still shots, the blade isn’t even there, and this was using Pro film.
I don’t know, I’m guessing here, but your knowledge of the Broadsword comes from Shaolin, does it not? That’s cool but it’s not Ba-Gua. Tai Chi and Xing-I forms are different from Ba-Gua as well in particular the DaDao. The regular Ba-Gua Broadsword set is comparable to other style sets except for maintaining the Ba-Gua characteristics, which is basically round and tends to slice more than Chop.
(To say that “[i]t just a Form demonstration, nothing more or nothing less” is to devalue the demonstration itself, implying that a demonstration is not a serrious display of martial movement and skill.)
This depends on whom you’re talking about. There are many that can do the hottest forms. They look dangerous but the truth of the matter is that they’re like a gun with no bullets.
(Looks dangerous, but…).
Now skill, What’s a good skill? Not every skill is useful. I’ll illustrate with an old Sufi story:
There was once a king who decided that he would hold a contest to see who had the most unique skill in his land. The prize was a fortune. Many came and demonstrated. The winner was a man who could spit 20 feet into a bucket. The king asked the man how he gained this skill. The man said that he had practiced for 10yrs. The king gave the man his reward but he also had him whipped. When asked why, the King said he had never seen such a waste of time to acquire such a useless skill and that he should have been more productive.
There are many forms champions that can’t fight their way out of a paper bag, but yet they are supposed to be doing Martial Arts, instead their doing art. What is the purpose of the Martial Arts? Today you might get many answers to that question, but there is only one answer. That is to fight! Weather for offense or defense, it’s still fighting. If you’re doing Martial movements you should be able to apply it.
An exception to this would be to see somebody do that form at that speed with Fu Chen Sung’s 30p DaDao. Lu Ji Jian’s Double Broadswords which weigh 20p apiece, master Ma’s 100 pound Kwan Dao. Demos such as these show true skill.
The statement was not meant to devalue the demo, but rather to point out that many can do a form excellently, but it means nothing if you don’t understand it and you can only get that from experiencing it, live. Not step.
The master in the clip is real, this I know. The statement was to you in general, not an assessment of the master’s form.
(." I know that not everyone has an antique, but there are modern reproductions available that are at least close to the real things. But I am not attacking the person in the form anyway; I am commenting on the use of wushu tools in general.)
But what if you weren’t allowed to use the real thing but you had to demonstrate? If you were going to demo, you’d have no choice under the circumstances. Now, if the choice is there, I’m in full agreement with you.
In the end, I’m all for a live blade. The fake stuff just ain’t right, don’t feel right blah, blah, blah.
Just my thoughts
Peace
Maoshan
“I’m not. You don’t understand my writing style. I only posted my opinion.”
You sure are confrontational. There is nothing complex or hidden about your style of online discussion. You are giving your misunderstood style of online typing too much credit.
“Now I don’t see where I seem to be confused in the statement I posted. Because I 'm not asking you a question.”
The question you asked in the second paragraph is implied. By implication, you asked, “What are you trying to get across to me about wushu toys?” When you say that the “weapons” in the video “sure in hell are not made for real combat,” you answer this question. That was my point. Now, you are STILL in the process of turning this into a personal attack. Get a clue, please, and drop it. For an internal martial artist, you are awfully quick to negative aggression.
“In my opinion a form demonstration is not the real thing, and I stand by my viewpoints. I met and encounter many individuals in my life of all ethnic groups that perform spectacular martial art forms demonstration that completely over whelmed people, but soon they try to utilize the martial function side of what they was demonstrating in real time they fall short big time!”
Right–when one demonstrates a form, one is not killing someone for real. With weapons, the same idea applies. HOWEVER, the act of using fake weapons (I don’t mean an inaccurate reproduction that is off on slighter points–wushu implements are off the scale) gives a greater sense of innaccuracy.
"Doug I’m totally aware of the real Big Dao and how much it weights. I have two real Big Dao myself, that was giving to me when I was training in Beijing China two years ago. "
Good for you! Do you use it for demonstrations?
“In my opinion That depends on who you learned from, and the martial skill level of the BaGua practitioner utilizing the Dao. I encountered and trained with a few BaGua teachers that can easy use the real Dao the same as in the clip I posted. ****, I have footage of a Few BaGua practitioners doing the same movements in the clip I posted with the real Dao.”
I am NOT referring to the practitioner’s skill; I AM referring to the wushu implement. Using a wushu balde is different from a real one (you should know since you own two). The way the blade moves, its weight, its balance, its construction–everything is different. A new practitioner of Bagua may see this and get the idea that this is a good way to demonstrate the art. In terms of choosing to use a wushu blade, that is a choice for the demonstrator to make. But it is an inaccurate one. Wushu tools just act differently–case closed.
“Doug I have to ask you, have you ever learned any Traditional Big Dao sets? Because I disagree with your statement.”
Again, I am referring to the tool used, not the user.
“Now I do understand your point, and believe me I’m far from taking your viewpoints the wrong way.”
…O.K. Even though your post conflicts with this last statement, I will take your word for it.
Doug M
Maoshan,
“I don’t think the sword detracts from the performance at all. To the trained eye you can see just what’s going on. A Wushu stylist could not have made that fake sword bend like it did. It’s just a testimony of that master’s power and control.”
Right–I was not commenting on the man. I was commenting on the tool.
“I know for a fact that there where still Sword duals in Taiwan in the 50’s, so I’m sure that the people know the difference between a fake and a real sword. The demo was done in China for the Chinese. They know the difference between contemporary and traditional martial arts its part of their culture. The teachers themselves make that clear. Now as far as the west is concerned you might be right, but it wasn’t made for them.”
Hey, tell us more about the duels!
Yes, this is in reference to the Western audience more than a Chinese audience.
“That clip was given to me years ago when a friend returned from China in the early 90’s, and it was 10yrs old then. Too few knew what Ba-Gua was aside from hearing about it at that time here.”
Had this information been provided, my post would have been different. This is an excellent example of something that is taken out of its original context and dropped in another one for a purpose that conflicts with the original. NOW, this clip is clearer. Thank you for pointing this out. The history of something is always important to include with it.
“From the point of view that I get from you, you feel that because the sword is fake, the master must be fake as well and the duped student will go to him and learn fake things. Nothing could be further from the truth.”
Wow, I NEVER said that. Check out me posts at www.swordforum.com to see that this is something that I would NOT say. Hey, I did not even know anything about the man behind the blade before you posted something about him. Now that the clip has a certain amount of clarity, I see that I would have said something in my original post to oppose the message that you got from my post.
“In the end, I’m all for a live blade. The fake stuff just ain’t right, don’t feel right blah, blah, blah.”
See, this is all I am saying. I am just filling in more of the “blah, blah, blah.”
Doug M
Great posts gentlemen.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.