I’ll start this thread off with this - I was watching some weapons performance by some very talented nam siulum martial artists recently - very quick, accurate strikes - when their weapons demonstration started.
Their flexible weapons (chain whip) was very good. The halberd was solid - as you’d expect for a weapon that plows through attacks, deflects opponents weapons with it’s staff etc.
The staff and spear were evasive, and used a flexible length of stave. This kind of movement is effective against another staff/spear weapon, and also against sword/broadsword (no evasion/flexible movement means your guy can easily attempt to cut down your weapon, or at least splinter it to make it difficult for you to slide it). I could see the usefulness of the body movement there.
What concerned me was the darn do/seung do broadsword performance. Both of these were performed with the type of flexible demonstration weapon that you can make the tip touch the hilt. While the performer’s form was very fast, and no doubt based on a classical set designed to precisely cut vunerable areas like the hands/elbows, knees, throat and eyes, I honestly couldn’t see a level of precision that would make this possible.
Personally I think people training in these rich traditions should be training with more realistic weapons that will hold their form throughout parries/cuts against an opponent.
What are people’s opinions about training to really cut? And are such flexible weapons found in actually used historical cases (for example, museum collections etc)?
I totally agree about flexable weapons i think real solid ones should be used after the thin floppy ones have been learnt. Then they should use the heavier weapons because this wil change their stances due to the size , shape and weight of each weapon.
I have a real tiger fork and Kwan dao, straight sword and i will tell you i dont think half of the wushu guys will be as fast or flash when trying to perform there moves with these ones i have. Take a samuria sword a real one and jump around doing flips or spins with one mistake you can injure yourself pretty fast.
From what I know, flexible sabers NEVER existed in chinese warfare. They only exist nowadays because they’re easier to wield during performances and because they make a cool noise (as FT said) :rolleyes:
I don’t say you cannot train with them, and actually that’s all they are: training weapons. True chinese sabers are rigid and substentially heavier.
As for the sword, once again the design we’re used to train with disappeared early from the army’s adopted weapons, around the Ming (and even the swords used during the Ming were shorter and wider, better suited for horseback fighting than the long, narrow jian we use).
However when it comes to personnal protection (which has noticeable differences compared to military fights), then this type of jian has been used quite often and moreover flexible (some of them VERY flexible) jians were often found. As flexible as they are, they remained razor-sharp, and if indeed even if it made it much harder to block a heavy weapon, their flexibility could be used to generate a tricky and unpredictable fighting style. I know of some jian styles, specially from Emei, that are specialized in using the flexibility of the sword (if I remember correctly it’s “emei dancing phoenix” and “emei phoenix tail”).
On a sidenote I also seen nifty applications of a flexible spear, which, with a good twist and jerk, could litterally go around a blocking weapon and stab the one who blocked.
So as far as I know, I only seen flexible blades used in 1) jian and 2) for personnal protection (as opposed to battlefield use)…
Thanks for your replies - I’m enjoying the discussion! I agree some jian might be made more flexible. With darn do/seung do though, they are not made for delicate slices and lunges, but more for cleaving. I saw some broadswords in the house of an old ethnic Chinese master which were just like chinese choppers - not as pretty as the wushu swords, but ever practical.
I don’t think broadswords should be used that are that flexible, but are there any combative uses of a more flexible weapon?
Also, does anyone have any online sources for images of antique/historical chinese weaponry?
Weapons today such as broadswords & spears & such are outdated, period. They exist now as ‘apparatus’ that being the case who cares if a weapon can cut through an opponent?!?! The old argument of a wushu player weilding his weapon with same ability is also not really valid, give a wushu guy and short broom handle & it’s a pretty safe bet he will do as well. Conversely give a traditional guy one of those light weapons unless he’s trained with it (developing the wushu players levels of speed) he probably won’t do so well.
Good points - we all should be able to handle any weapon available. I also think, as Fiercest Tiger was saying, that the use of the ‘real’ weapons requires a certain kind of stance/form, and that if this isn’t the focus of training, our martial art will be forever changed to become something else than what we have protected until today.. whew, I’ll get down off my soapbox now…sorry;)
Weapons and organised warfare are what makes human conflict different from that of the animal world, and we should prepare for as many possible needs - we might need to apply a chopper or something similar in a home-invasion, or defend against one too!
I agree also on the point of training with the light weapons(for form) and progressing to the heavy ones(for combat,what they were used for in their day).
What bugs me is that a pretty form done with a weapon
made out of tin foil that looks flashy will seem(to the eyes of the laymen) to outclass a weapon set done with a real combat weapon.
Do they have different judges and classes for combat weapons
as opposed to non-combat weapons or are they all grouped into one single class?
If so then this needs to be changed(IMHO).
Just as how can you expect to get a fair judgement from a…
Lets say a (please don’t get ****ed,this is just an example)
Hung-ga master/judge on a SMP/YKM/BM/Dragon set when their system maybe southern but is on a different plane.
Personally I think both heavy and light weapons are good. I like to train with heavy weapons to build strength and increase the control of the body. Conversely when doing a performance I prefer a lighter weapon (not necessarily wushu light but somewhat flexible).
The whole concept of “combat weapons” is rather impractical anyhow. None of us will likely ever had a fight with a staff, spear or sword. Maybe someone will use a broomstick but thats about it.
It is important to know all the applications both offensive and defensive for teaching purposes and ones own knowldge.
Lets face tournaments are all “eye candy” anyway. Anything where you have to rely on the opinions of others to determine who wins is a bit suspect to begin with. No one actually wins on the field like with most sporting events. So if it takes a lighter weapon that makes noise to win then use one. If you don’t care about trophies and only compete for yourself then use heavy weapons. People who have half a clue will respect you if you do a good form with a heavy weapon.
To me someone’s respect is worth more than some $20 trophy that you will hang clothes on or leave in your garage anyday.
cant recall the exact source now, but I think it could have been in Yang Zwing Mings book chinese weapons where I read that most weapons where some what flexible in ancient times. Their metalurgy was pretty good at some time, and there was even a story about a famous kung fu soldier who apparently had a flexible saber which he tied around his waste as a belt to hide his weapon. I will try see where I read this, and will et everyone know.
training with flexible weapons does have their benefits. it could help you to understand how to generate power using hips etc.
I have held heavy weapons, which were unbalanced and felt very heavy, and I have held balanced weapons which were heavy bit felt light. I think proper weapons should be balanced and should not feel to heavy.
e
I prefer the more traditional weapons. Heavy combat steel (like from the Lung Chuan), no nickel plating. I like stuff that you could actually sharpen and use on the battle field. Also it’s important that the balance of the weapon is correct and that if feels good and maneuverable in your hands.
The weapon and the performer are intimately tied together. Your weapon should be like an extension of your body. My old Sifu wouldn’t even let us touch any of his personal stuff because he didn’t want us to “corrupt” it.
There are many flexible weapons in the Chinese kung fu arsenal but swords never come up as one of them. I think a sword should be more solid than that.
With the broadsword you can slash with the blade and poke with the tip. But with the really light wushu swords I don’t think you could really poke anybody. If you tried to poke some one with a wushu sword the sword would cut but it would only go in so far until it started to bend. With a real broadsword you could really jam that thing in there.
So in the weapon you select I think you should ask yourself “could I really use this on the battle field” and “could I really execute all the techniques with this weapon.”
Performance is another issue and I think CLFNole summarized that pretty well.
Once upon a time boanks only provided fixed or floating home loans. Then came the flexi home loan which tailored to the needs of clients who don’t know whether to fix or float their borrowings.
Flexi-swords I believe came after proper broad swords and chain whip. They are for those people who don’t know how to use either.
Its so typical of Southern Kung fu people to have gone on for miles posting what you all had done without saying that Flexiswords are a stupid waste of time.
I agree about the stylistics - away from the tournaments you can always see if someone’s movement is really ‘cutting it’. I was also really interested in what Eddie was saying about the defense weapons some would wrap around their waist - Eddie, if you do have any more info on that, please bring it in!
I want to take this further now, and ask - most southern styles broadsword seems perhaps up to 200 years old stylistically. Does everyone agree with that? I’m no historian when it comes to China, so I’d like to ask - did southern weaponry see any battle/conflict in that time, and if so, what kind of clothes/armour might we expect they would have worn?
You mean the chain whip thing. How you use it is the same way as you would swing a bicycle chain. It’s not the first weapon of choice - your sword is.
FT:
Flexi swords can’t cut.
Sing Fu:
200 years old and probably more. I belive the chinese had made iron a lot longer. Broad swords were used by the Northern armies many more centuries ago. The southerners though were farmers and had no use for such a dangerous weapon.
only exist nowadays because they’re easier to wield during performances and because they make a cool noise (as FT said)
They’re also a LOT cheaper! Have any of you tried the new wushu swords? I’ve got a jian and really like the weight and balance of it. It’s still semi flexable, but doesn’t make all the noise. A lot better quality than the old “tinfoil” swords, the only thing I never liked much in my wushu training or performance.
Flexibility in swords is a benefit in terms of horseback/cavalry assaults. A rigid sword will become lodged in the target, irreparably damage the blade, and possibly even dismount the rider.
Sorry about the infrequency and random postings. I’m currently moving between duty stations, and continents.
Oh Drake you are one raving fool to think that flexi-swords are used on horse back against armor!
Lodge into target and cannot get it out - what pathethic kung fu movie did you get this from or is it what your southern kung fu sifu got you to believe.
What you want is a hunk of steel, full of weight behind it. Your horse goes at about 20mph, you colide that piece of sharpened steel against flesh, that’s what yopu want. You’ll slice through leather armor or plated armor without a problem.
Fierce tiger: I hate the sound of flexi-swords as they swish through the air. How dare you like the sound of that. Really annoys me that people buggerize kung fu by doing this flexi-sword thing. I hate crouching tiger and hidden dragon for the same reason. I hate HK kung fu movies as well as all other kung fu movies.
Flexi-swords were used by Hung Gar players when they trained in the hulls of the red junks, so that a mistake wouldn’t result in a hull breech, drowing all occupants within. They can’t swim, they were previously farmers.
Just like the show Babaylon 5, how they weren’t allowed to use projectile weapons in the space station. Mmmmm if a bullet can penetrate the hull, I wonder what would happen if the space station were hit by a good sized metor. Anyway the red junk won’t survive the slash of a sword, let alone the fire of a cannon by the Priate yellow beard, the shor from a gun or the impact of a meteor. Accordingly, Hung Gar is no match against northern kung fu.
Geez I hate flexi-swords. Who was that darn fool who started this troll post. It is really ticking me off.
Hey, how do you say ‘accidental versectomy’ in cantonese again?!? 