Has anyone here attempted to use Chinese sword techniques against a seasoned western fencer? If you have let us know the results.
Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai
Using a chinese knife (dan dao) I got creamed.
Using a 1 inch thick by 36 inch long stick I got beat bad twice.
Using a sword (gim) I could even the score.
Nothing beats experience. Theories and talk is always cheap.
fencing
I got a fair amount of mileage out of Chinese techniques on the strip, all told. Of course, what I used could have been described in fencing terms, but I’d attribute my ability to deploy those techniques to my kung fu training. Arguably, it gave me what little advantage I had out there on the fencing strip.
I remember once having to fence saber in this demo/exchange tournament versus a Junior College. We were an NCAA team and since this tournament was just for fun, the saber squad didn’t show. I was never a saber fencer, so I relied mostly on dao techniques. One of my buddies was directing. He nearly ejected me for hitting too hard. I was pretty irate at that call at the time because I didn’t feel like I was hitting hard at all. My buddy had dabbled in kung fu so he knew a bit about dao technique and said I was using that stuff unfairly. I was like “whatever, dude…” and was pretty ****ed off at his calls until long after the bout when my opponent took of his jacket - his chest was covered with thick nasty welts, all from me. I then had to sheepishly apologize to everyone for being such an *******.
There was also I time when I kinda tripped this guy in a bout. It was a total accident/reflex, something again out of my dao form. Yep, another penalty for Geno… :o
I think fencing with sabers wether wood or not would be painful.
That’s why padded armour is worn. 
I haven’t tried chinese sword vs a fencer.
sword techniques, unusual cma ones not withstanding have a lot of similarities depending on the shape of the blade.
My daughters both made varsity fencing team in High School, when they were in Junior High, I believe due to their Kung=Fu training. They alsways said it was just like Kung-Fu. I fenced in HS, but I had just gotten involved in Kung=Fu, so there is not much to go by there.
I always wanted to fight in the local Rennaissance Faires. Those guys are pathetic. I always imagine dressing in some Chinese/Mongol armour and using double swords-since I also have PMA experience. The main problem, what what I’ve gathered is, you need to join their organization, such as SCA, and work your way up through the ranks, starting as a squier or knave or something, and I really don’t want to get involved with that . i don’t wanna learn to speak Elven, or call myself “Midol, Great Wizard of Darvon” or Duke of Worstichire,Earl of Clove, Sir Loin of Beef, or anything like that. Hey, I like Star Trek, but I don’t speak Klingon, and I don’t walk around wearing Vulcan ears.-if ya catch my drift.
That being said, anyone know of a way that we can form our own Chinese /Mongol organization and play with those guys without the stupid politics? I heard there was a Darke Horde-but they also had all this “work your way up through the ranks, attend the meetings, court the Queen, bull****” and I just wanna bash people with swords. I suppose we can always join the Dog Bros.
You cannot generalize western style fencing. the way you use the sword is different depending on whether it is the slashing kind or poking kind. We know that the Spanish can get in close, hence they use the sabers with a short sword combined. The Vikings or Scottish use broad sword techniques when they use the battle ax.
As for the strip fencing vs chinese broadsword, the equivalent way of handling it would be using your broad sword vs chinese straight sword. You cannot match the weapon for speed but you can bait you oppoent to over extend and then break the weapon before slashing them to bits with your broad sword techniques.
Watch the end fighting sequence of Rob Roy, there you have a slashing weapon matching up against a poking weapon.
heh rob roy was on tonight. for some reason the poking weapon was used almost completly for slashing? or perhaps my eyes are too slow.
anyways, i was wondering how similar fencing foil or epee are to an authentic dueling weapon. not that dao or jian are always completely accurate either. if i got worked by someone with a foil whilst using my katana, or dao. i would’nt take it too personally.
neit,
Fencing in today’s terms are highly restricted by rules which would be different to real dueling in the old days. It is kind of the same argument as sports kung fu vs real kung fu.
I would think that there is alot more use of the butt of the weapon when swords clash, kind of like what you do with a chinese Gim or trapping your opponents weapon and kicking him in the nuts.
Chinese sword vs. western fencing
Those of you with experience against western fencers… Are there any underlying principles that make one method better than the other?
Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai
Are there any underlying principles that make one method better than the other?
not better, but sometimes different.
btw, a “poking” weapon as you have called it can also be used like a hard whip.
straight swords, such as a jian or double edge sword can be used for slashing and thrusting techniques.
Of course, classical fencing weapons have specific merits designed for the dueling they are used in. I wouldn’t take a foil to battle in other words, I would take a weapon that was a little more versatile and could cause damage of the most sever kind with any aspect of the blade.
duels
Fencing in today’s terms are highly restricted by rules which would be different to real dueling in the old days.
You’re confusing street fighting and battlefield combat with duelling. Duels of honor were highly codified. There were very strict rules of conduct and etiquette. Modern fencing descended from this.
As for the original question, I suppose it’s akin to someone asking if studying kung fu helped them in the sport of boxing. For me, kung fu definately helped in fencing. There was plenty of negative transfer, but the positive far outweighed the negative. For that matter, both kung fu and fencing bled over into my dabbling in Kendo. Kung fu helped more with aspects of handling the weapon, but fencing definately helped with my sense of timing and distance.
I agree. While I only fenced for a short time, and not that seriously, I found that my experience in kung fu definitely helped in my fencing. The area in which it was the most help was in distancing, and a little in parrying. Still, they are different disciplines so there was a lot I had to learn.
i found that the combination of kung-fu, and the shape of my hips(one is kinda offset) that kendo was impossible. yet iaido and kenjutsu have been no problem. the older japanese arts seem to use those nice comfy kung-fu type stances. 
I should have clarrified in the Rob Roy film, the guy with the poking weapon did well to avoid the heavier sabre and did constant injuries on Rob. I mean the poking weapon is not just for poking, but it can be directed with wrist action for small slashes like the chinese Gim.
In terms of dueling, the codified conduct only came about later. I tend to think of dueling as a small street fight with perhaps 3 or 4. Kung fu should have helped in timing and distance unless you are just a forms fanatic.
In a full scale battle that last a day or longer, then no - you want a heavy waepn that isn’t going to quit on you. On a slight tangent, that’s why the chinese (and perhaps other cultures) carry a chain (like 9 section chain whip) as a secondary weapon to clear the space if you’ve lost your sword in battle.
Gene, again duelling etiquette was very regional. Here it could be very rough and ready whereas in France and Italy it was much more genteel (if you can refer to killing that way). There are some interesting accounts in English Martial Arts by Terry Brown, as well as explanations and details of how the style became less martial.
I guess it would be good to post this here again.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html
it’s an interesting write by a guy in 1599 and deals a lot with western swordplay and how it’s trained.
Ben Gash,
What dio you mean by the Gentille art of dueling. Do the English go - Pardon me my good sir, may I slice you with my sword?
It’s that why the dashing pirates of old won the admiration of fine english ladies with the arrrr de arrrr arrrr swashbuckling attitude?
Oh forget the french, they drink too much win and plaster their face with makeup and speak with this upper crassss accent. Oh la la I’m breaking a sweat, my make up is running.
That’s probably why the wild scottish man with raw bravery won the heart of the fine french princess. Those lards of scotland are brave indeed, they wield a wicked broad sword or a battle ax. No wonder why the upper class english don’t stand a chance.
I guess it depends on what part of town the book has been written about.
actually, dueling was a practice of the nobility in the time period Gash is referring to.
It was a practice of Honour and generally was a way to exhibit skill moreso than a way of killing someone.
Pretty much every culture has this form of ritualized violence whos main purpose was to save face as opposed to actually whip into the fevered pitch of killing combat.
There was a chance you could die, in fact many duelers met this fate. But as many or more were sent packing to lick their wounds and think of the error of their ways.
Even Chinese martial arts have this flavour of fighting as is shown in the ideas of - a friendly exchange - vs - true combat -.
Even now, sportive combat is not a fight to the death, but the reality is there that fatality is an aspect of even this. Zig when you should zag, go home in a bag.
So oddly enough “Pardon me my good sir, may I slice you with my sword?” while not the exact words perhaps was a likely scenario in regards to these matters.
Real gentlemen had kungfu in that way. 
Kung Lek,
That’s why I said earlier that it depends on which part of town the book was written in.
You’ve addressed the Pardon me my good sir… but not the arrrr de arrrr arrrrr i’m yellow beard… they sure don’tr serve their crackers with cavier do they?