Chinese sword vs. Western fencing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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Fencing and Kung Fu Training

Hey Guys,

First, the type of training you receive depends on your teacher. you can get a sense of how applicable Western swordsmanship can be if you watch Wheels on Meals with an actor employing kicks into Western sword work. It is quite dynamic and hardly anything like sport fencing.

For my part, fencing was good exposure into another culture’s take on sword work. However, the fact remains that fencing is not representational of real European swordsmanship. Like contemporary wushu, it is designed for sport application and not combat and killing potential. Weight, balance, sword composition, handle composition, and rules limit the realistic aspect. It is a good system, made of foil, epee, and saber skills. A participant can focus on cut, thrust, or both. I found that I was somewhat clumsy and stompy with my footwork. I just felt heavy all the time. When I think back, I am not surprised that more experienced students tagged me.

My kung fu training, in my experience, was vastly greater (I would say superior). There are far more differences in terms of how the body is used to desired effect in kung fu, all of which, in my opinion, produces more positive results.

My mindset was also different with kung fu, for I certainly related to Chinese ideology and practice much more than sport fencing. Simple things such as terminology also shaped my perception of the art. Referring to the lower part of the body as “the trunk” certainly did not promote the idea of a flexible, articulating body, whereas kung fu (in this case, Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut) seemed to naturally promote such things.

My approach to fencing would have been different if I were coming from a kung fu background. As it was, I went into fencing with an Aikido and Naginatado background.

Anyway, sport fencing has potential for excellent fitness. The variations that occur within that potential really is determined by the teacher and your approach.

In any case, comparing Chinese and European sword sparring in the sense of Chinese swordsmanship and sport fencing does not do much good other than create some unnecessary generalizations. Both are great systems of combat that were victorious and beaten down at various times. A separate thread that looks at specific time periods of swordsmanship for both cultures would be more applicable.

Still, I am glad to see this thread here!

Doug M

22

Doug,

“In any case, comparing Chinese and European sword sparring in the sense of Chinese swordsmanship and sport fencing does not do much good other than create some unnecessary generalizations.”

No I don’t want to compare wu shu and sports fencing. I want a comparison between chinese and european swordsmanship. If going head to head, what the respective strategies would be.

Does anyone here know?

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Wow, that is a big comparison. It deserves a thread for each era and sword/knife in question.

Some good books on European sword work (short titles given):

Clements, John. Medieval Swordsmanship

—. Renaissance Swordsmanship

Ed. Kirby, Jared. Italian Rapier Combat

There are others I have that are not in my mind right now. But these are pretty good to start. I think you can find a fuller list of these that I posted some time ago on this forum.

Doug M

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You can also try this website - some very interesting articles.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays.htm

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Right–forgot to mention that source. That is even better than his books because the web site is updated and such. The videos are great and do give a quite different impression of European sword work. John is actually a good source (although quite brief in his e-mail) and will reply to you if you contact him. Although I do disagree with his claims at the end of one of his books about Asian masters…

Doug M

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Doug / Joe,

Thanks guys, I will check it out and I’ll let you know my feedback.

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Chinese Sword vs. Western Fencing

Does ayone here have any knowledge of the Spanish school (style) of fencing?

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I highly recommend going to www.swordforum.com to the Historical European Swordsmanship Forum to research this question.

Doug M

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I read some of those articles. Rapier -> good one -> light as a feather -> well balanced. The hilt is used for trapping etc. technique includes sliding in on someone’s sword. Close in trapping / wrestling techniques. Use of butt of weapon to hit opponent in face etc…

Guess what,I could say the same about the techniques used for the chinese straight sword. The way the article describes as to how to play the rapier against the Japanese sword is almost the same as I would with the gim.

My theory is that, it is not the east vs west argument that determines how the weapon is used, but rather the inherent characteristics of the weapon.

Question all, How do you think the rapier would fair against the Gim? Understanding that the Gim is probably a heavier weapon with possibly more cutting ability. The rapier seems more flexible and may contain some whip like action as you would with the chinese long staff (due to its length despite its diameter).

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The jian user could fare quite well. Scott Rodell at swordforum.com said he has played against rapier users and did quite well. He is a good source about such comparisons.

As I understand it, rapiers, by and large, were used for thrusting, not cutting. The blade of a raper was rather rigid, not flexible like a foil. Of really long rapiers that I have seen, the blade did not bend due to its size.

Doug M

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Doug,

Yeah, certainly the Jian has about 1/2 of its techniques relating to cutting. But so do some rapiers depnding on the blade configuration.

The other thing I hadn’t raised is the length of the blade. Is the Jian shorter than the rapier - but I guess rapiers come in different lengths.

There is also a 2 handed chinese straight sword, much longer than the single handed variety and it is an awesome dueling weapon - against the normal Jian, it has the tactical advantage by far.

Wonder if the same can be said between a long rapier and jian?

another question - given that rapier users also carry a dagger for close range, why don’t jian users also carry a dagger when the usage and configuration of the weapon is kind of similar in many respects?

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Has anyone noticed any similarities between Pa Kua footwork and the circular footwork used by the Spanish fencers? Are there any similarities between Pa Kua sword and Spanish sword as both use a circular method and both would need to keep the dominant (sword hand) forward most of the time.

Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai

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that european martial arts looks fun. as long as they stay focused on training rather than never ending research and collecting of dozens of weapons they will never use. or costume play. i think european spear-play especially could be loads of fun. i like the focus on weapons. hmmmm this makes me want to look up the western-m.a. guys at my local university. very tempting.

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Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Yeah, certainly the Jian has about 1/2 of its techniques relating to cutting. But so do some rapiers depnding on the blade configuration.

Depending on what you mean, cutting with a rapier is quite different from cutting with a jian. Rapier cutting is nothing like taking limbs, but it is more like “scratching” or more minor cuts. Rapier blades, unless I am mistaken, were not supposed to take an edge along the length of the blade–at least the variation I am thinking of.

The other thing I hadn’t raised is the length of the blade. Is the Jian shorter than the rapier - but I guess rapiers come in different lengths.

Rapiers came in a variety of lengths. At one point, they got so long that if they passed a specific, legal length they were broken. Blades could get into the five-foot range.

There is also a 2 handed chinese straight sword, much longer than the single handed variety and it is an awesome dueling weapon - against the normal Jian, it has the tactical advantage by far.

Well, I’ve never seen a real sparring between these types of practitioners, so I cannot comment on it.

Wonder if the same can be said between a long rapier and jian?

It all depends…extraordinarily long rapiers are not quite helpful once an opponent is beyond the point. That is why a secondary weapon is used. And those varied to interesting uses too.

another question - given that rapier users also carry a dagger for close range, why don’t jian users also carry a dagger when the usage and configuration of the weapon is kind of similar in many respects?

They can in the case of two swords. I also would not discount the use of a small knife or something else because Chinese martial arts are quite deep in weapon applications. There is practically a double-weapon form for nearly every Chinese weapon (minus the obvious ones which would be unwieldy). Additionally, there are many combinations of double weapons that can be used to great (for you) and tragic (for anyone else) effect.

Doug M

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sport fencing

wahh, here we go again. check out this thread on the jkd forum :eek:

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Doug,

Yup, in terms of cutting ability you’re absolute right. The rapier cut is a distraction. Although the Jian is unlikely to hack a limb off it can sever tendons and artiaries - not just a flesh wound (assuming no armor of course).

Single handed Jians are about 3 feet long. Rapier of 5 feet would have better range. But the Jian can do more (in mid range). But the Jian seems to be a havier weapon, so closing in on a rapier is likely to be challenging.

In close, I think the jian player will have to contend with the second weapon, knife - so the trapping at the hilt in relation to jian vs jian may not be practical in the case of someone with rapier + knife.

No, usually forms don’t have jian + knife, although it would seem logical.

Question is why did the westerners NOT have the Jian and Chinese NOT have the rapier???

any takers?

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Geno Ha???

Originally posted by GeneChing
[B]I got a fair amount of mileage out of Chinese techniques on the strip, all told. Of course, what I used could have been described in fencing terms, but I’d attribute my ability to deploy those techniques to my kung fu training. Arguably, it gave me what little advantage I had out there on the fencing strip.

I remember once having to fence saber in this demo/exchange tournament versus a Junior College. We were an NCAA team and since this tournament was just for fun, the saber squad didn’t show. I was never a saber fencer, so I relied mostly on dao techniques. One of my buddies was directing. He nearly ejected me for hitting too hard. I was pretty irate at that call at the time because I didn’t feel like I was hitting hard at all. My buddy had dabbled in kung fu so he knew a bit about dao technique and said I was using that stuff unfairly. I was like “whatever, dude…” and was pretty ****ed off at his calls until long after the bout when my opponent took of his jacket - his chest was covered with thick nasty welts, all from me. I then had to sheepishly apologize to everyone for being such an *******.

There was also I time when I kinda tripped this guy in a bout. It was a total accident/reflex, something again out of my dao form. Yep, another penalty for Geno… :o [/B]

LOL… I’m going to use that…

Anyway…Frankly Geno, I haven’t read the rest, and lmao @ being a hardas* and playing like you mean it. So this in mind..how do you get a real spar/ bout where you can cut loose on??? None of this, teacher’s watching , gotta be kind til ( or was that after ??) he knows he’s whopped jazz… how does a person really test their skill?? Retorical right ! :rolleyes:

meiguanxie :wink: :cool:

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Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Yup, in terms of cutting ability you’re absolute right. The rapier cut is a distraction. Although the Jian is unlikely to hack a limb off it can sever tendons and artiaries - not just a flesh wound (assuming no armor of course).

Actually, the jian is a limb taker. Cuts with a jian are designed not only to easily cut muscles and tendons but also to take off arms, legs, or torsos. Armor would certianly factor in, but it could take that too. You should get a copy of Scott Rodell’s book, Chinese Swordsmanship, and his DVDs that are companions to the text (or they can be seen that way).

Single handed Jians are about 3 feet long. Rapier of 5 feet would have better range. But the Jian can do more (in mid range). But the Jian seems to be a havier weapon, so closing in on a rapier is likely to be challenging.

Many factors play a role in such a fantasy encounter, but we can only speculate on it. In terms of better range for a rapier, that is a matter of perspective: is the point going to stop or encourage you to get inside the weapon’s “dead zone” and go to school?

In close, I think the jian player will have to contend with the second weapon, knife - so the trapping at the hilt in relation to jian vs jian may not be practical in the case of someone with rapier + knife.

Not quite sure what you mean here.

No, usually forms don’t have jian + knife, although it would seem logical.

I didn’t say that. I said I would not discount it entirely. What is to say that Chinese soldiers and/or private weapon carriers did not have other weapons (of a potentially wide variety) with them as companion pieces? Even though there may be no apparent form as such, the idea behind it is not too crazy.

[B]Question is why did the westerners NOT have the Jian and Chinese NOT have the rapier???

any takers? [/B]

Sure. Rapiers are limited in what they can do. With no real edge (meaning an edge along the blade), they are good for thrusts, pokes, and scratches (by that, I mean something much worse than an “Ow!”), but they are not cutters. So one way to look at this question is why would Chinese weapon users and makers take on such a weapon with limited capacity? How far would it really go in a crowd of attackers as opposed to (how it is traditionally seen) a one-on-one situation?

Doug M

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Doug,

“Actually, the jian is a limb taker”

How does that work? There isn’t that much weight behind the Jian and only about 3 inches is actually sharp. Taking out limbs you’ll need a longer cutting edge and weight behind the weapon - ie broad sword or katana.

“is the point going to stop or encourage you to get inside the weapon’s “dead zone” and go to school?”

Not easy against a long weapon. With good footwork the rapier player can add another 2 feet of movement. Plus the long weapon gives good leverage. It’s also light and fast. i say it’s fairly difficult.

“Not quite sure what you mean here.”

Jian players if blade to blade connect then they’ll clash to the hilt to trap the opponent’s weapon. Well that won’t be easy if a rapier player is also carrying a knife. Clashing to trap the rapier brings you in range of the knife.

“I said I would not discount it entirely”

I just thought that if there are Jian+knife forms, it would be more common.

“So one way to look at this question is why would Chinese weapon users and makers take on such a weapon with limited capacity?”

The rapier is possibly a lighter and faster weapon to use. Sure it has far less cutting ability, but it’s speed in making thrust should compensiate. Furthermore, it is used in conjunction with a knief so it should address the short-range aspect.

“How far would it really go in a crowd of attackers as opposed to (how it is traditionally seen) a one-on-one situation?”

For both the jian and rapier+knife. Not suitable at all. Broad sword or other heavier weapons to deal with battlefield scenarios. The Europeans had that as well.

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How does that work? There isn’t that much weight behind the Jian and only about 3 inches is actually sharp.

It would appear that you haven’t ever held a real Jian. Every combat Jian I have seen was sharp all the way down. Also Jian weigh between 1.5 and 5 lbs depending on the manufacturer, the purpose of the blade, the specific specs and the type of steel used. Many European longswords weighed between 3 and 4 lbs. That makes Jian very equivalent to those long swords. The two main differences I have observed are a slightly different profile to the blade and (of course) the characteristic guard design used on jian.