Chinese sword vs. Western fencing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
41

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
[B]“Actually, the jian is a limb taker”

How does that work? There isn’t that much weight behind the Jian and only about 3 inches is actually sharp. Taking out limbs you’ll need a longer cutting edge and weight behind the weapon - ie broad sword or katana.
[/B]
No offesne, but you are mistaken about Chinese swords. Perhaps there was a period when time was most important and, in the heat of the moment, sword blades were sharpened as you suggest. HOWEVER, that is an assumption or stereotype of Chinese jian and dao. It has been repeated enough to convince people about the false image of Chinese swords. The blades were sharpened the entire length of the blade. Scott Rodell at swordforum.com deals in antiques, and in the thousands he has handled, all have had sharpened edges the entire length. And in terms of cutting ability, I refer you back to his work.

[B]“is the point going to stop or encourage you to get inside the weapon’s “dead zone” and go to school?”

Not easy against a long weapon. With good footwork the rapier player can add another 2 feet of movement. Plus the long weapon gives good leverage. It’s also light and fast. i say it’s fairly difficult.
[/B]
Well, I can only refer back to my experience with “the point” aimed at me. The same applies to trails against a spear user. Get inside the weapon, and the spear man has few choices left.

[B]“So one way to look at this question is why would Chinese weapon users and makers take on such a weapon with limited capacity?”

The rapier is possibly a lighter and faster weapon to use. Sure it has far less cutting ability, but it’s speed in making thrust should compensiate. Furthermore, it is used in conjunction with a knief so it should address the short-range aspect.
[/B]
My next question is have you ever used a rapier and dagger before? Until you see it happen or experience this for yourself, all is theory. Again, ask Scott at swordforum.com about his experiences with rapier users.

[B]“How far would it really go in a crowd of attackers as opposed to (how it is traditionally seen) a one-on-one situation?”

For both the jian and rapier+knife. Not suitable at all. Broad sword or other heavier weapons to deal with battlefield scenarios. The Europeans had that as well. [/B]

Again, this is an assumptin apssed on by too many people about jian usage. The jian actually has quite a bit of versatility in terms of encountering multiple attacks. Rapier is far less versatile by the nature of the weapon, especially the longer the weapon. Drawing it, for instance, would be a challenge in itself. I have a video, The Blow-by-blow Guide to Rapier and Dagger (or something like that), which shows a nearly four-toof rapier (blade being four feet) being drawn. For its size, the draw is fairly quick but not fast enough. Such restrictions of a weapon of that size would require something else to compensate , such as a gantelman’s code, to keep him from being killed before he can get his “scratcher” out.

Doug M

42

“No offesne, but you are mistaken about Chinese swords. Perhaps there was a period when time was most important and, in the heat of the moment, sword blades were sharpened as you suggest.”

That’s very interesting. Perhaps is not the heat of the moment, but relate to a different era, not a rush for time. I say this because sword forms in kung fu relate to a sharped tip (+ 3 inch) as opposed to a sharpe shaft. In any case, the shaft would get blunt very quickly from clashing.

“Get inside the weapon, and the spear man has few choices left.”

The shaft can still be used. But to get inside the weapon is not easy, the length gives very good coverage / leverage.

“My next question is have you ever used a rapier and dagger before? Until you see it happen or experience this for yourself, all is theory.”

No. Anything light and skinny, I would use like a straight sword as an appoximation. Of course I will not have the skill of someone who is specially trained with a rapier.

“Rapier and Dagger (or something like that), which shows a nearly four-toof rapier (blade being four feet) being drawn. For its size, the draw is fairly quick but not fast enough”

Both the jian and rapier are not juick draw weapons like the katana - where the draw is the first cut. But you’re right, a longer weapon has this disadvantage.

43

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
"because sword forms in kung fu relate to a sharped tip (+ 3 inch) as opposed to a sharpe shaft.

The Jian form I have been learning includes quite a few cutting techniques that potentially make use of much more than three inches of blade. Honestly, where did you get this number from? The ether?


In any case, the shaft would get blunt very quickly from clashing.

Which is why a person who uses their sword regularly would polish and sharpen their sword regularly. A sword is not going to get too blunt to cut even after a day of rigorous use (unless it completely breaks in the process).

44

Originally posted by Doug
Rapier cutting is nothing like taking limbs, but it is more like “scratching” or more minor cuts. Rapier blades, unless I am mistaken, were not supposed to take an edge along the length of the blade

You are mistaken: the rapier was sharp along both edges and some styles made significant use of cutting.

<Rapier> Blades could get into the five-foot range.

I’m not sure where you’ve gotten this figure. A long rapier blade is 3 3/4’.

45

Originally posted by Christopher M
You are mistaken: the rapier was sharp along both edges and some styles made significant use of cutting.

Cite your source. Prove this was the case for all rapiers. If you re-read my past posts, you will find I state that most rapiers did not have sharp edges along the blade’s length. You will find that you are mistaken.

I’m not sure where you’ve gotten this figure. A long rapier blade is 3 3/4’.

You probably aren’t sure becasue you have not researched this subject. Please do so before jumping to conclusions. Yes, rapiers did get very long; they were not all three-plus feet only. English rapiers could get as long as four-to-five feet or more. When it became a problem, the longer rapiers would be legally broken by law officials if caught.

Doug M

46

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
[B]That’s very interesting. Perhaps is not the heat of the moment, but relate to a different era, not a rush for time. I say this because sword forms in kung fu relate to a sharped tip (+ 3 inch) as opposed to a sharpe shaft.[QUOTE][B]
That may be difficult to prove since most swords before the Ming Dynasty are not around anymore. Those that do can be studied. I already made the case for the antique dealer who, through his examination of thousands of swords and knives (dao, the edges were all sharpened. Sure, the tip is used extensively, but the middle is also used as well as more.

[QUOTE]In any case, the shaft would get blunt very quickly from clashing.

That is why jian swordsmen were not supposed to use the edges to block. The sides are used for deflection or parrying.There are plenty of swords that have nicks, so they show that people did use the edge as well. However, if preventing one’s death means blocking an incoming balde with an edge, the choice is obvious. Also, a chipped edge is a damaged edge, so swordsmen will wnt to avoid damaging the blade as much as possible.

The shaft can still be used. But to get inside the weapon is not easy, the length gives very good coverage / leverage.

Yes, to some extent. If you are referring to a waxwood, you should know that there is not historical precedent that shows waxwood shafts were used. In museums, you will find hardwood shafts with Chinese spears and long-handled dao.

Both the jian and rapier are not juick draw weapons like the katana - where the draw is the first cut. But you’re right, a longer weapon has this disadvantage.

Acually, a jian is a quick draw weapon. There is historical precedent for it, and some schools actually practice it in their swordsmanship.

47

Originally posted by Doug
Cite your source.

“The rapier is used primarily for thrusting, but can also be employed in a variety of cutting techniques.” (Maestro Ramon Martinez)

There was a specific development in European swordsmanship when people stopped using sharpened edges, and it produced, from the rapier, the weapon known as the smallsword. Even in the Italian and Spanish traditions, however, the smallsword continued to have sharp edges.

You probably aren’t sure becasue you have not researched this subject.

Del Tin, considered the top market in reproduction rapier blades for historical use, does not make a blade longer than 42". That’s a foot and a half shorter than your claim.

Rapier lengths are measured as the quillons standing as tall as your navel, or from one shoulder to the tip of the opposite hand’s index finger. To warrant a rapier blade five feet long, someone would have to be 8’5".

48

Originally posted by Christopher M
“The rapier is used primarily for thrusting, but can also be employed in a variety of cutting techniques.” (Maestro Ramon Martinez)

That was already covered earlier in this thread. Cutting with a rapier does not mean chopping off limbs. It amounts to small cuts, depending on the type of rapier blade used. But it does not have anything to do with taking heads, Highlander: The Gathering style.

There was a specific development in European swordsmanship when people stopped using sharpened edges, and it produced, from the rapier, the weapon known as the smallsword. Even in the Italian and Spanish traditions, however, the smallsword continued to have sharp edges.

Research this component of the rapier’s history.

Del Tin, considered the top market in reproduction rapier blades for historical use, does not make a blade longer than 42". That’s a foot and a half shorter than your claim.

Whatever Del Tin makes matters little to this point: mass-produced wall hangers or practice toys all amount to generalizations of period weapons and do not encompass the wide range of variations therein. Just because Del Tin does not make a five-foot rapier means nothing. And it is not my claim: research this to find out the historical, written truth for yourself.

Rapier lengths are measured as the quillons standing as tall as your navel, or from one shoulder to the tip of the opposite hand’s index finger. To warrant a rapier blade five feet long, someone would have to be 8’5".

I disagree, but it certianly would be very big and cumbersome. That is probably why they were restricted in size by law. Check English history for more information.

Doug M

49

Originally posted by Doug
Cutting with a rapier does not mean chopping off limbs. It amounts to small cuts

I didn’t say the rapier was used for chopping off limbs, I said it was characterized by sharp edges.

Research this component of the rapier’s history.

I have. Which is why I was able to reference it, of course.

Just because Del Tin does not make a five-foot rapier means nothing.

It means that the people actually studying and practicing rapier do not use five foot rapiers. That is a more reasonable standard of evidence than your whimsy, which is all that has been offered up against it.

50

Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]I didn’t say the rapier was used for chopping off limbs, I said it was characterized by sharp edges.[QUOTE][B]
And there is a host of information that contradicts this notion. If you choose not to believe it, that is your discretion.

[QUOTE]I have. Which is why I was able to reference it, of course.

If that is what you call research, you have a lot more than paperwork to go through. No offense, but the web site is not enough. There are plenty of other books on the subject. But if you want a quick reference, check this source:
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight.htm

It means that the people actually studying and practicing rapier do not use five foot rapiers. That is a more reasonable standard of evidence than your whimsy, which is all that has been offered up against it.

It is funny that you speak of “whimsey” when you protect plenty of your generalizations as certain and solid. If you bother to research this subject, you will find that you are mistaken. Previous sources on the Internet do not support your perspective. While early “rapiers” were both cut and thrust, rapiers as we know them became edgeless thrusters (not counting the slight edge at the tip for some specific cuts to the face or elsewhere). You also seem to have something amiss in your logic: I never stated people use five-foot rapiers today. Modern practitioners have no need for such lengths unless they are personally interested in one. And, quite frankly, you have the argument all wrong: it is the manufacturers who are up against historical facts that contradict their product lines. Modern mass producers are the ones who distort history very well for a price.

Other than the source you mentioned, where do you get the opinion that all rapiers had sharp edges?

Doug M

51

Doug: you’re coming across as needlessly antagonistic. I’ve offered some resources people may consider for themselves in defense of my position. You have not.

Given this, and as it currently stands, there doesn’t seem to be any reason for me to offer further response.

52

Originally posted by Christopher M
Doug: you’re coming across as needlessly antagonistic.

That is an interpretation, not a logical assessment. Looking at how you responded, everyone else will understand why I responded the way I did.

I’ve offered some resources people may consider for themselves in defense of my position. You have not.

Apparently, your research skills reflect your reading skills. If you R-E-A-D my previous post, I did offer a web site as a quick source. If you are too caught up in your own fancies and will not research this further, that is your problem.

Given this, and as it currently stands, there doesn’t seem to be any reason for me to offer further response.

That is because you are unable to back up your claims further.

Doug M

53

Originally posted by Doug
I did offer a web site as a quick source.

Doug, an article which says “As with any long bladed weapon, rapiers could always be used to strike a blow with the ‘edge.’ Many rapier texts include such actions in their repertoire and any swordsman would make himself familiar with them” is a not a very good defense of your claim “Rapier blades were not supposed to take an edge along the length of the blade.”

Your own source refutes you.

54

Originally posted by Christopher M
[B]Doug, an article which says “As with any long bladed weapon, rapiers could always be used to strike a blow with the ‘edge.’ Many rapier texts include such actions in their repertoire and any swordsman would make himself familiar with them” is a not a very good defense of your claim “Rapier blades were not supposed to take an edge along the length of the blade.”

Your own source refutes you. [/B]

First of all, you have not stated where you got this from. On that note, your quote does not help you at all.

Second, you arrive at this conclusion because you are a poor reader and also unethical. If you actually read the whole article (assuming it is the one I am thinking of), probably the next sentence or two, you would know that the “cut” (which, by the author’s definition, does not have to be done with an edged weapon–which makes sense) would produce painful stings or, at most, slight cuts. (If you have ever been hit with a very narrow piece of metal that is not sharp, you will know what this means.) However, either you 1) chose not to include that portion of the article in order to mask the truth IN ORDER TO support your diminishing point–a highly unethical action since it misrepresents the author’s intentions, you thief–or you 2) did a poor job of reading the article and missed that point becasue you were sloppy.

Either way, your claim dissolves into the aether, going nowhere. But you make yourself look really bad. Congratulations.

And you still have yet to answer my pervious questions. If you were honest, you would answer those because they would help cover your sorry state of an opinion. But since you do not, I refer to the above: congratulations.

Doug M

55

Originally posted by Doug
First of all, you have not stated where you got this from.

The first quote was from the article you offered, the second quote was from your previous post.

56

My point exactly–you have no more options and nothing left to say.

Doug M

57

We can conclude so far that the term rapier can encompass a number of designs with variability in their cutting edge and length.

In terms of where I got the 3 inch sharp of a chinese gim, basically an approximate measure. Some of you said that antique gims had a sharp cutting edge throughout the length of the blade - I like to know what era that came from.

As you know straight swords have been around longer than a lot of kung fu system which occurred between the 15th to 17th century.

58

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
In terms of where I got the 3 inch sharp of a chinese gim, basically an approximate measure. Some of you said that antique gims had a sharp cutting edge throughout the length of the blade - I like to know what era that came from.

The three-inch sharpness is actually something that has been passed around. Examination of antique swords shows that the blades were shard throughout.

The periods in question would be the available swords from the past that you can find in museums and private collections. Most will come from the Qing Dynasty, few from the Ming Dynasty, and fewer still as to the available swords from before that.

Doug M

59

Richard Cohen, in his excellent book “By the Sword”, on page 49 of Chapter 3 reports on Queen Mary I of England’s attempt to stem the new practice of dueling: “…denounced ‘divers naughty and insoulent persons’ who had been fighting using rapiers up to five feet long and wearing armor underneath their clothing”

The armor as well as the extra-long rapiers were seen as not quite sporting, now that dueling had started becoming acceptable for gentlemen to settle their differences. “Sudden combat” was evolving into “formal duel”.

The extra long rapier certainly existed, and the fact that it was seen as unfair and eventually banned where shorter ones were not appears like it must have been an advantage, altho it seems to me like it would be awkward. <shrug>

I have done no real training with the jian or Western swords; my work has been Southern Chinese with the dao or Filipino with sticks or other short, single-edged blades.

Kermit

60

Thank you for the source, freehand.

Doug M