Last night got together to train with some guys I used to train with. They’ve been doing kali for just under a year and can really twirl their sticks, hit each others hands and are further along than I ever got. Here’s what happened when we sparred, I won. Everytime. These guys are novices at best but I was surprised that they had a hole so big in their training that even I could take advantage of it. What they did was every time I swung they would to try to hit my hand or my arm. What I did was instead of trying to hit them I hit their stick aiming above their hand while closing and went for the disarm (drop my stick which may be stupid, knees, elbows and joint locks). This is the same thing someone did to me a while back and he had the same result. What struck me besides a very few hits was their focus on dueling, defanging the snake, and trying to hold onto their sticks instead of fighting back when it got in close. And also how bad they were at reading my intent (hit their stick instead of body).
BTW the sticks were rattan with padding on the tip and I got hit when I tried to out stick fight them (a few nice bruises). I also know their instructor whom I know pretty well would eat me alive if I tried that with him. I also know most stickfighters would beat me like a red headed step child but I was surprised about last night.
If nobody can see a problem with the tactic I used I’ll add it as a street defense option and count it as luck that my training partners need more instruction against someone coming in.
Rogue-
You’ve discovered one of the weaknesses of many traditional stickfighting systems- too much finesse and not enough power.
Crashing, dropping your stick and working for the disarm is a indeed a very good strategy against the finesse practitioner, although you’ll have much less luck with this against a stickfighter who has a good power game, as well as the mobility to keep you from crashing.
I’m not saying that your tactic would never work, but don’t delude yourself. As you say they were your friends and I assume without any intent to hurt you. If they were true enemies with hardwood sticks, I would guess that you could have been hurt pretty bad.
Sounds like a smart tactic to me. In fencing, they’d call it a beat. And in eskrima (at least at my school) we called it tapi. Knocking the weapon out of the way to get to the person.
Like Knifefighter said, people train finesse. They mistake stick handling for stickfighting. They train sinawali patterns and think they can fight with two sticks. They train twirling and think it amounts to single stick fighting. Etc.
Originally posted by rubthebuddha ****it knifefighter, just when i was getting to hate you, you have to say something i agree with. sheesh.
You can still hate him. We won’t mind.
if I were stick fighting with you rogue I would have gone for your head Hands are too small and hard to hit. Tell them to stop with the flowery crap and learn how to fight properly.
I’d say this was more failure in their understanding then a success on your part
Were they using the same sort of motion to bash your hand that you were to knock their weapon out of the way? Or were they fighting at a longer range and just trying to swat your hand?
The beat/tapi is a perfectly valid technique. But many FMA guys would suggest that (in reality) you not aim just above the hand but right on the hand instead. It still knocks the weapon out of the way. But it also potentially damages the hand and aids in disarms, etc.
Of course, depending on the equipment you’re using, you’re not going to make many friends doing that in sparring.
apoweyn, I was going above the hand to get a little more distance as I was trying to not let them get my live hand or arm. Also I’m not very good and their stick was the easier target. They were trying to stay longer range.
If their instructor finds out they were diddling around like that they’re in for some enlightening sparring sessions with him. What really amazed me is that these guys are OK empty hand fighters but as soon as the stick was in their hands they never kicked or punched. All their other training was forgotten.
if I were stick fighting with you rogue I would have gone for your head
And that’s how it started, head, body arms etc. I know they are faster than me and train more so I crashed everytime to get to where I’m better. It got easier to get inside when they tried to defang since their arms were sticking further out. I’m a one trick pony and got tagged a few times when they adjusted but only on my dead arm.
Hands are too small and hard to hit. Tell them to stop with the flowery crap and learn how to fight properly.
Like I said if their instructor finds out…
I’d say this was more failure in their understanding then a success on your part
I’ll take the success anyway I can, I did have a plan and executed it. While I’m not training sticks I did use tactics and the strategy that I’m being taught so it wasn’t an accident. Their failure in understanding was an incredible help but that’s life. Like KF said, “although you’ll have much less luck with this against a stickfighter who has a good power game, as well as the mobility to keep you from crashing.” I know it and you won’t see me competing at any DB gatherings in the next 20 years.
No delussions Fu-Pau, we were going pretty hard but I just did something they didn’t think would happen. I expect my results wouldn’t be so consistently succesful against others. I’m so lost with a stick in my hand I dropped it to switch to what I’m better at.
Rogue, did they seem to be trying to adjust to your tactics? Did they seem to be only interested in the stick fighting aspects? With what you describe to me I am inclined to think that they are doing this for fun more then anything else and so are ‘sticking’ to stick techniques almost entirely.
Meh. I think it’s something slightly bigger than that personally. I think it suggests a difficulty in crossing the gap between drills and sparring. A common problem.
could be, but there is aproblem in the martial art between people seperating hobbyists, from fighters, form sports guys. Often the two mix and get the wrong impression of what was happening. For instance, in this case Rogue walked away feeling these guys didn’t have what it took to fight right, they wouldn’t survive on the street, rogues way of looking at the martial arts. They may at this very moment be talking about the blockhead who just didn’t get it when they were training with him last night “Yeah, he kept hitting my sticks then throwing his down and grabbing me! He must not know how to sue those sticks very well!!”
Yeah. I see what you mean. I disagree in this case. But I see what you mean.
I don’t think Rogue is getting due credit here. (Nor do I think he’s looking for any.) He observed what they were doing, formulated an approach, and implemented it. That ain’t bad.
As for the other guys, it’s easier for me to believe that they just didn’t have the time in yet to make a smooth transition. When we’re inexperienced, we try to fight our fight. When we’ve got more time in, we can fight the fight for what it is. My suspicion is that these guys didn’t have that sort of experience. They wanted to fight their fight. Hang back and whack the hands. It’s a common enough tactic in FMA to believe that they were relying on it too heavily. And that Rogue managed to throw a monkey in their collective wrench.
but there is aproblem in the martial art between people seperating hobbyists, from fighters, form sports guys. Often the two mix and get the wrong impression of what was happening.
In many ways you are right, but if the hobbyist says during self defense training that “I’d really do this against your attack”, tries and fails, then who has the wrong impression about what’s going on? And I bet they are saying, “Yeah, he kept hitting my sticks then throwing his down (really just dropping) and grabbing me! He must not know how to sue those sticks very well!!” and I’d agree with them that I suck, but they were closed on, hit, locked, disarmed and sometimes hit with their own stick.
… we try to fight our fight …My suspicion is that these guys didn’t have that sort of experience.
Exactly, and I’d say they are still novices at FMA, what is surprising is that these guys also have years of martial arts experince and advanced rank in non-FMA. As soon as they had that stick in hand all their experience went out the window. That’s something that really caught me by surprise about Monday night.
Your last post about experience is right on the money and can be applied to JMA, CMA, AMA and any other MA.
Exactly, and I’d say they are still novices at FMA, what is surprising is that these guys also have years of martial arts experince and advanced rank in non-FMA. As soon as they had that stick in hand all their experience went out the window. That’s something that really caught me by surprise about Monday night.
Funny how that works. How changing modes can make you all but completely forget your other modes.
“I’m stickfighting now. Gotta hit him with the… Hang about! That guy just dropped his stick! What the?!”
Your last post about experience is right on the money and can be applied to JMA, CMA, AMA and any other MA.
It’s something I struggle with a lot personally. I figured I couldn’t be the only one.
In many ways you are right, but if the hobbyist says during self defense training that “I’d really do this against your attack”, tries and fails, then who has the wrong impression about what’s going on?
If this is the case then they got what they deserved. I guess my issue is just perspective. Alot of arguments in the martial arts revolve around perspective, although alot of martial artists miss that point.
“I’m stickfighting now. Gotta hit him with the… Hang about! That guy just dropped his stick! What the?!”
or pulling a metal training knife while empty hand sparring as happened to me, or pulling an airsoft and giving your knife swinging training partner two in the chest. It’s funny how modal we are.
Something that I’ve noticed about the really good combatives guys is that they don’t transition. They don’t move from disarm mode to knife mode to empty hand mode to gun mode, it’s the same fight no matter what’s in their hands or how many opponents.
Alot of arguments in the martial arts revolve around perspective, although alot of martial artists miss that point.
You’re right red but this was testing an application. I went through this when I left one school and started at another. make that still going through it. Holding on to a perspective when your situation changes will get you hurt.
One interesting thing I have noticed about many people when ‘playing’ with weapons is that they get so focused on the weapon that they forget everything else they know. Their total concentration is on using the weapon and retaining the weapon, that they forget all the other fight training they have had.
Originally posted by joedoe One interesting thing I have noticed about many people when ‘playing’ with weapons is that they get so focused on the weapon that they forget everything else they know. Their total concentration is on using the weapon and retaining the weapon, that they forget all the other fight training they have had.
I agree. Whereas someone (Rogue) who wasn’t really ‘attached’ to the use of that weapon was perfectly happy to use it to deflect the other guy’s weapon and then discard it in favour of something he felt more comfortable with.
Originally posted by rogue
…or pulling a metal training knife while empty hand sparring as happened to me, or pulling an airsoft and giving your knife swinging training partner two in the chest. It’s funny how modal we are.
And it would probably radically change the way we spar if we seriously did think, “I wonder if he’s got an airsoft gun as well.” Even knowing the gun isn’t real, we’d probably still fight completely differently if we trained ourselves to consider other modes.
Something that I’ve noticed about the really good combatives guys is that they don’t transition. They don’t move from disarm mode to knife mode to empty hand mode to gun mode, it’s the same fight no matter what’s in their hands or how many opponents.
Hmm… I’m thinking that warrants a thread in and of itself. Suggested training methods for developing a better sense of “modeless” sparring. (And a better name for it, while we’re at it.)
It’s funny how modal we are.