Too much fighting in stick fighting?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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This morning I was getting some pointers from a friend on stick fighting. He contends that most of the FMA stuff taught isn’t effiecient and concentrates too much on dueling (lack of commitment when attacking), concentrates too much on the stick and doesn’t bring the whole body into play. In his words you’re a stick fighter rather than being a fighter with a stick. Trying to defang the snake from the inside didn’t work on him and got me dumped in the mud. His background is in Japanese and Okinawan martial arts and stick fighting, a little FMA and a long career in the military.

I’ve sent him the URL for the Dog Brothers site to see what he thinks.

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Heres something you might find interesting. I knew an old Indian (India) man who carried a stick everywhere, and he told me that in northern India the people train with these, he told me he was good with it but I didn’t get a demonstration. I believe him though because later they had his life story in the newspaper(he was in Aucthwitz) Anyway his stick was probably 6 ft.

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What did he do to dump you in the mud?

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depends on the class

I’ve seen kali guys who
-trained for fun/sport with lots of repeated point hitting.
-trained for self-defense with no-nonsense stuff.
-trained elaborate stuff that wasn’t necessary to perform after an opponent had been hit once hard.

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Well, perhaps that’s true for some FMA. From the little I’ve done though, those statements are total BS.

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well

there’s LOTS of really effective-at-fighting FMA people.

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Trying to defang the snake from the inside didn’t work on him and got me dumped in the mud

what do you mean by this? You tried to disarm his stick from an inside gate or you tryed to smash his biceps and triceps to make his arm useless or what?

sounds like you went looking for a disarm and he popped you one. dont hunt for disarms.

as far as what your pal thinks of FMA, thats only from his limited experience and reeks of style generalization - consider the vast number of styles and martial arts and methods that make up “FMA.”

:eek:

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What did he do to dump you in the mud?
Which time? Since the ground is soaked here he swept me, tripped me and just plain side kicked me down. Outside of using his stick to clear or counter my stick he didn’t use it much at all and then it was about 50% two handed stuff. My glove and a somewhat new pair of crosstrainers are ruined with clay. I got away with some nice black and blues from the light jabs he gave me to the chest, shoulder and thigh.

You tried to disarm his stick from an inside gate or you tryed to smash his biceps and triceps to make his arm useless or what?
sounds like you went looking for a disarm and he popped you one. dont hunt for disarms.
That’s close. I was going for closest weapon to nearest target which should have been his arm. That’s what I was taught and that’s what I do. While I was trying to stay in “stick” range he just always managed to get in close. He just refused to do what he was supposed to which was stay out where his stick was most effective.:slight_smile: I’ve never been close to Dog Brothers level with sticks and have let what little skill I had go, but I thought I’d at least be able to get a few clean hits on him. I just sucked and need to get into some good training.

there’s LOTS of really effective-at-fighting FMA people.
Sure are, but there is alot of dualing type training going on in alot of the schools. He also feels this way about most martial arts schools and styles not just the FMA. He’s big on commitment when fighting and training. Given his background I can see where he’s coming from.

as far as what your pal thinks of FMA, thats only from his limited experience and reeks of style generalization - consider the vast number of styles and martial arts and methods that make up “FMA.”
He actually has alot of experience with various arts. I do know that he’s referring to what’s being taught and not the FMA.

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So back to the question, Is there too much fighting (dueling) in stick fighting?

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From my exp, no - but its all in how you train man. Some train to engage, close gap, take out opponent vs maintain range and exchange blows etc. I know several stick fighters that prefer the second, and are good at it.

I dunno - I have never been to a FMA ‘mcdojo’ or large commercial FMA buisness/academy etc, just backyards and parks and basements etc.

Sounds like he was much better then you in general, and had a better game goal then you did - to take you out vs you trying to hit is hands.

Also much FMA teaches through what they call the ‘labratory method’ where you will train 2 sets of skills vs everything else. 1 set is for the “correct” response set from your opponent or in otherwords skilled, trained hands, the second set for “incorrect” response set to go along with untrained or unskilled hands, and also vs people who are better then you. No doubt he knew you were trying to hit his hands, when you did not know where he was trying to hit you.

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Sounds like he was much better then you in general, and had a better game goal then you did - to take you out vs you trying to hit is hands.
yenhoi, that is a gross understatement. :smiley: What he was trying to show me was to not trade shots but commit to the attack or defense. We also did this a while back with my sparring as I had fallen into the trading shots there too.

From my exp, no - but its all in how you train man. Some train to engage, close gap, take out opponent vs maintain range and exchange blows etc. I know several stick fighters that prefer the second, and are good at it.
I’ve had it drilled into me that ranges for blades are in and sticks are out. I’d think that the close and take the guy out method would be the more efficient of the two for street work. I’ve seen that some stick fighting guys are adding grappling and ground fighting to their mix which sounds pretty cool.

I woke up around 4 this morning and started downing Motrin and putting on the Flexall. I’m hurting from light contact not even the insane DB stuff, I don’t see how those guys do this for fun. I’m heading back to his place in a little while to workout some more and watch some vids.

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Yah. Sticks = pain. Thats why you learn to dodge them faster then wimpy man-hands. :slight_smile:

:smiley:

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What did he say about your footwork?

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**** rogue.

sounds like you’re still having fun.

it’s been a while since i’ve looked in here; but, don’t i remember you saying something about not doing any more sparring? - getting to beat up, or something? (was that you?)

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… uh… that was “d@mn”.

D@MN! DAMMN ****IT DARN DAYUM

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Rogue:
I agree with your friend. Many people who train stick fighting are quite dismayed when they go full-on for the first time against a truly committed opponent.

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Rogue,

I’m with Knifefighter on this one. Yenhoi and Kinjit are obviously right that there’s a lot more to FMA than stick dueling. But I think that was essentially your friend’s point too, yeah? That people tend to overlook the bigger picture.

I first learned FMA in a ‘McDojo.’ I had good teachers. Well qualified. From a sound lineage. But their priorities were still to run a commercially successful school with a lot of students. Largely kids. (The school taught both FMA and taekwondo.)

I think the school did an excellent job of teaching the basics. I think my footwork is one of my biggest strengths, and I have them to thank for that. But where they didn’t shine was teaching us how to put it all together. We learned single stick, double stick, stick and dagger, knifefighting, empty hand, etc. We did forms (don’t ask), full-contact sparring, drills, etc. But we didn’t take it as far as it could go, in my opinion.

There was definitely an emphasis on stick dueling. When we sparred stick, we could sweep or disarm, but we couldn’t punch or kick. When we fought empty hand, we weren’t (in my opinion) sufficiently trained to use more distinctive FMA movements. Our footwork, kicking, and hands tended to resemble taekwondo (since several of us had or were also training in taekwondo), but with low-line targets available for kicking.

It was largely a self-driven effort to go beyond that. (And I still haven’t done enough.)

I think your friend is right that the stick (knife, sword, etc.) should be regarded as part of a bigger picture. One disclaimer though: Part of why we weren’t encouraged to kick in a stick fight, for example, was that it would be relatively easy for your opponent to bash your shin, knee, etc. with his stick, making kicking a slightly more risky proposition than in strictly empty hand. But that doesn’t translate into ‘don’t kick.’ Only ‘kick appropriately.’

Stuart B.

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It seems to me that using sticks and kicking almost go hand in hand. You have extended range because of your sticks, add kicking to that and you might be able to keep your opponent at bay. Psychologically the sticks may occupy more of your opponents attention then your feet as well?

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You better engage his hands or stick or sticks if you are going to kick him red5. Even lowline kicks etc. Else your just giving him free beer.

:eek:

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Word.

I’m actually inclined to think that kicks are especially ill suited for a stickfight because their optimal range is also optimal range for the stick. and an optimally ranged stick across the shin/knee/ankle/etc. just isn’t any fun.

That said, as always, it comes down to timing, angling, etc.

Stuart B.