the judoka are the guys not wearing the hakama (traditional kendo pants, like aikido people wear).
What happened? Why?
How could guys that don’t ever train with swords (they never did the forms, never did the drills, have no experience 'sparring") simply pick them up and be able to do what they did to those guys who did all these things?
They trained a certain way under a certain set of rules with a certain set of expectations. They did not adapt to people that did not follow the set of rules, methods etc that they were used to.
Everyone can be good in their own circle but the real training comes when you move out into the big world.
[QUOTE=hunt1;950914]They trained a certain way under a certain set of rules with a certain set of expectations. They did not adapt to people that did not follow the set of rules, methods etc that they were used to.
Everyone can be good in their own circle but the real training comes when you move out into the big world.[/QUOTE]
Basically they were trying to express their training, their kendo. That is the problem, they are “TRYING”, when you do that on purpose, TRYING to look like the drills they perform, like the teacher that is teaching them, the natural flow of movement stops when you are doing it for real. It’s like TRYING to walk across the room, do you try to walk or do you just walk, without thought or concern of how you are walking. The problem with Traditional arts, is that sometimes the TRADITION gets in the way. Traditional methods of training is fine when you are learning something new, or different from your natural way. But when you are applying something, like kendo, you have to forget the training (learning), forget about the way you should look, and just act, with the idea that the training has somehow made your natural movement more effective in relation to what you are doing. I agree with Terence, that there has to be a distinct difference between the learning of something, and the application. If your still in learning mode while applying, you have missed the point.
Heh, poor Kendo guys. You could see that he was somewhat skilled (since he did score lots of “men” hits) but he wasn’t used to getting actually pounded by a shinai.
Which is fine, imo; Kendo is the japanese equivalent of olympic fencing, that is, a sport. It’s not about hurting your oponent, but rather it’s about scoring clean points, with little or no actual attention to the swordsmanship aspect (i.e. cutting with a edged weapon).
The judoka basically assumed that the shinai was used like a club and just slugged away at the kendoka, which is only natural since he wasn’t used to the Kendo ruleset.
props to the kendo guys for even allowing it - many MA schools advertise a open door policy (as it very rarely happens), but few often allow their students to get involved in it
Seems to demonstrate that you guys don’t know the rules of kendo.
You only score on the top of the head or under the chin and stuff, not smacking people on the back of their shoulders. Has to be with the top part of the shinai. Clubbing the guy doesn’t count. The judoka weren’t doing well at all.
[QUOTE=Edmund;951029]Seems to demonstrate that you guys don’t know the rules of kendo.
You only score on the top of the head or under the chin and stuff, not smacking people on the back of their shoulders. Has to be with the top part of the shinai. Clubbing the guy doesn’t count. The judoka weren’t doing well at all.[/QUOTE]That’s the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it. In “real life” they would be cut (shoulders, back, etc).
[QUOTE=CFT;951033]That’s the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it. In “real life” they would be cut (shoulders, back, etc).[/QUOTE]
No they didn’t land first. It’s quicker than you think. They swung first plenty of times. They were blocked and counter struck so many freaking times. They just didn’t realise it and kept whacking away after the fact… Too late by then.
That’s the point. The kendo guys are still sticking to the etiquette when it is clear the judo guys have absolutely no regard for it.
OK, but this is the sportfighting with rules that the self appointed forum guardians like the OP say is the be all and end all. By your logic, BJJ and Judo are jokes because the other guy can beat the crap out of them, and MT is a joke because a wrestler can take them down.
Or anyone can pull out a gun and shoot them all.
You could argue whether kendo rules have anything to do with a real weapons fight, that might be more to the point.
we dont know the skill level of the kendo guy..as well as the judoka.
natural reflexes and general athleticism comes into play.
this doesnt prove or even suggest that drills/forms are useless. it could only suggest that athleticism is an important factor in combat (no one disagrees with this)
who is to say that the same judoka practicing drills/forms would not be even better than he was in the video. that is the only logical way to determine what niehoff is trying to prove
also the kendo guy was following the rules. the judoka was not..he probably did not know them
you can’t say the judoka did better. its like playing soccer with one team using their hands and running the ball through the goal like a touchdown.
the judoka was just going nuts wacking as much as he could. not much skill involved.
is this evidence that charging at someone without skill is the ultimate form of attack?
yeah he did score hits…he basically did the equivalent of charging at someone iwth a chain punch. against an unskilled opponent you will probably win some bouts–i have seen those on youtube already.
Watch what happens at 0:36-37 of this vid that Terence posted. Watch how the guy on the bottom starts to work an armlock escape from the bottom - and then the editing skips to another scene. Gives a very false impression.
[QUOTE=anerlich;951068]
You could argue whether kendo rules have anything to do with a real weapons fight, that might be more to the point.[/QUOTE]
From my limited understanding, it’s supposed to imitate an armoured weapons fight. The scoring blow is a clean uninterrupted strike with foot stomp and yell using the top part of the shinai. This is a sword cut that would go through a helmet or wrist armour.
For the Terences:
Since the judoka did not time their blows with their footstep very often, it would probably not be deemed good enough for judges. The fact that they charged in or whacked a lot with arm power doesn’t really matter as scores are awarded on the first good strike. It’s not a game of count the whacks.
Judoka understand the concept of ippon in comps. Dragging your opponent down by hanging on for dear life after being thrown doesn’t matter. Same with kendo strikes. After you’ve been struck it doesn’t matter if you whack back 10 times. It’s just annoying the hell out of your opponent.
I actually think the judokas understood the kendo rules a bit because at about 1:25 he raises his shinai in the air when he actually did score once!
you go into an essentially non-combat sport with a total disregard for the rules and playing pretty much for full contact and you’ll win.
WTF else is there to learn from it?
One of the worst most pointless pieces of **** videos I’ve ever seen.
There’s no object lesson involved.[/QUOTE]
Excellent post, and it underscores the real point I was trying to make with this thread: that we can’t recognize what is outside of our own personal experience. The people who have through experience already learned the object lesson that video presents easily recognize it. The people who have not learned that object lesson don’t recognize it. For them, the video truly is pointless. And, from their perspective, that’s true – it’s pointless for THEM because they can’t recognize what is beyond their experience.
Before they can see the object lesson in that video they need to personally experience (learn) that object lesson themselves. Only then can they see and appreciate the object lesson. Until then, they are blind to it.
Can you guys who recognize the object lesson explain it to or convince the people who don’t see it? No. It won’t do any good. Nothing will except getting them to personally experience it themselves.
[QUOTE=Pacman;951464]so that means we shouldn’t train for competitions with rules like they do in Boxing, wrestling, MT, and BJJ?[/QUOTE]
No, it means you don’t see the “object lesson” since you’ve never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.
that we can’t recognize what is outside of our own personal experience
you should really look at that statement again and self reflect.
you had a bad experience with a poor CMA teacher. sounds like a really really really bad one. maybe two. you can’t see stuff on youtube of TMA that you like.
this doesn’t mean that you can conclude what CMA training is and CMA effectiveness.