An object lesson . . .

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

No, it means you don’t see the “object lesson” since you’ve never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

Terence,

You wanted to ridicule an art that you weren’t familiar with.
Now you claim there’s a lesson that only people who’ve already learnt the lesson can see i.e. “Only previously enlightened people like me can see how enlightening this video is.”

In actual fact, because YOU didn’t know the reasoning behind the rules of kendo you were the unenlightened one. And your biased brain thinks it’s being objective!

The judo guys looked like they did well to you because they ignored the fact they were “cut” and had LOST ALREADY. The shinai imitates a sword not a light saber, the bogu imitates full armour. It takes skill to swing the sword so that it cuts through full armour. Without that, they don’t win. Stick to the rules when you go do another art. Maybe you’ll learn something rather than dream about how street-awesome you are against a shinai.

I’ve done MT. You sound like you wish you had. No doubt you’d be trying to headbutt people the whole time to validate yourself.

22

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951459]Excellent post, and it underscores the real point I was trying to make with this thread: that we can’t recognize what is outside of our own personal experience. …[/quote]Have a gold star.

For them, the video truly is pointless. And, from their perspective, that’s true – it’s pointless for THEM because they can’t recognize what is beyond their experience.
Understanding fail? Mine or yours…? What there is beyond my experience? I’ve done kendo competitions under kendo rules. Incidentally, while kendo furnishes you with excellent timing for fighting, good experience in working angles, and countering, and maintaining body structure under pressure, it takes approximately three seconds of practice to work out that since what they’re delivering is a whippy little touch it’s basically points sparring with no point in continuing for any transferability to real fighting skills. The reason that video angered me was because someone should have pointed out to them that the way those judo guys were using those shinai would be enough to concuss someone and is not the way they’re used in the gentle sport of kendo. I came from an aiki-sword background (of course unrealsitic and innapplicable for a number of different reasons) which teaches sword a la kenjutsu - cuttin through - so when I started kendo I was admonished (and beaten up for as an example) for using my shinai like a weapon: it isn’t.

I’ve done lightly protected light contact free sparring with wooden weapons which have still resulted in dislocated/sprained digits and mild concussion. I’ve done FC MMA sparring where the rules were agreed but the teacher wasn’t watching everyone at the same time and some people will try and take your head off cos they haven’t got the experience to recognise mutual agreed contact levels or just because over here they train full-on. I’ve done chi sao of varying degrees of contact (none of it comparable to sparring). I’ve been in supposedly light play around sparring sessions of the kind of pub challenge when somebody finds out you learn an MA and comes out with ‘What would you do if…’ which always ends in escalation. Oh, and I’ve been in situations that have flared up from nothing, come from nowhere, that have had any result from my running away, to them running away, to my having been kicked unconscious.

So, tell me T, what experience am I lacking to see your object lesson?

Real life experience? I know what it feels like to be bullied, and also to have rules (be they agreed competition rules or generally accepted societal rules) thrown into my face.

Again, all I can see there, is people who don’t know or care for rules of essentially a non-violent point-sparring sport can kick the **** out of somebody in the sport. What next? Boxer vs table tennis player? Muay thai vs wing chun? … Oh wait, I get it! :smiley:

Except… I said there was no object lesson, so are you saying it puts me in this category?
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951469]No, it means you don’t see the “object lesson” since you’ve never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.[/QUOTE]

So, I’m going to have to end with a “**** you” now, because I’m confused but I do know this is the internet!

23

compare the Kendo to Chi sao or some other Wing Chun specific drills, and I think you’ll get what T N is after. Ever done or seen someone else chi sao with someone from another style? The “points” you score are often unobserved by outsiders, and the “fouls” they make are equally ignored. Does that make chi sao or kendo or similarily bound drills useless? IMO no, but you must realise the limitations of the drill. Chi sao is not a fight, neither was that Kendo… if you wanna prove fighting skill fight for real. And if you make the mistake of thinking chi sao is like a fight… get ready to lose a real one.

24

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951469]No, it means you don’t see the “object lesson” since you’ve never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.[/QUOTE]

I’m missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.

25

No, it means you don’t see the “object lesson” since you’ve never learned the object lesson of that video. People who box, wrestle, fight MT or BJJ, will know the object lesson. A great many people in TMAs will not.

I’m missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.

Get your BJJ BB opinions out of here and let him make his gross generalisations. :slight_smile:

DREW

26

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951648]I’m missing the lesson here also. Other than the fact that the Judo guys had probably played some kendo somewhere in their past.[/QUOTE]

I think it has to do with “what we are used to.”

To explain – in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn’t because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).

27

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951833]I think it has to do with “what we are used to.”

To explain – in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn’t because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).[/QUOTE]

You are 100% right. Most people have never fought with weapons at full intensity and don’t understand how important the intensity level is with weapons.

28

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951833]I think it has to do with “what we are used to.”

To explain – in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn’t because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).[/QUOTE]So I was right - you’re stating the blindingly obvious, without actually stating the most important thing: it’s not ‘intensity’, it’s pain. It’s really ****ing painful getting clubbed with a shinai: it can easily cause concussion. So yeah, sure they’re not used to it, because in kendo you’re taught NOT to hit that way. Again, it’s down to a boxer vs a table tennis player.

29

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951833]I think it has to do with “what we are used to.”

To explain – in my mind what is interesting is how poorly the trained kendo guys did. I would expect that they should be able to easily handle poorly trained, unskilled guys with shinai. But they had all sorts of trouble. And that isn’t because the judo guys might have played some kendo but because the kendo guys were facing an intensity (something judo instills) that they were not used to. And what happens when we face an intensity we are not used to is that our technique, our game, etc. crumbles. In a sense, skill is intensity-dependent.

IMO the lesson is we can only get good at doing what we are used to doing, what is famailiar. And what I mean by that is both situationally (are you used to getting out of headlocks? or dealing with genuinely resisiting opponents?) and in terms of violent intensity (are you used to dealing with someone going all out?).[/QUOTE]

So the object lesson is that if you pad up a bunch of guys and take away the cutting edge consequences from their training, then judo guys can whack the cr@p out of them until they get close enough to throw them?

um, okay…

You know they rent out these inflatable sumo suits too that are really fun at corporate parties. You can really go after someone with live intensity.

So the object lesson there is that fatter people are more dangerous in a fight unless they gas out first. :smiley:

30

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;951890]So the object lesson is that if you pad up a bunch of guys and take away the cutting edge consequences from their training, then judo guys can whack the cr@p out of them until they get close enough to throw them?[/QUOTE]
Put on armor and, even with cutting edged weapons, much of the cutting edged consequences are removed.

31

This is what I talked about – if YOU don’t personally experience it, then you can’t get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren’t used to or if you put them in a situation they aren’t used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don’t believe – and don’t want to believe – this to be the case.

32

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;951895]Put on armor and, even with cutting edged weapons, much of the cutting edged consequences are removed.[/QUOTE]

Oh, great. Now I need to go and hang out with all the nerds from the Renaissance festival to learn an object lesson.

33

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951908]The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren’t used to or if you put them in a situation they aren’t used to), then they crumble.
[/QUOTE]

Your point about needing to train at a fight level of intensity to be able to be effective is a valid one, both with weapons and without. And yes, it’s apparant that the kendo students had not previously trained much at all with a fight level of intensity.

34

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951908]This is what I talked about – if YOU don’t personally experience it, then you can’t get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren’t used to or if you put them in a situation they aren’t used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don’t believe – and don’t want to believe – this to be the case.[/QUOTE]
according to who theres millions of us out there sitting on your puter all day how in the hell could you have met them?

35

This thread certainly wins the prize for stating the bleeding obvious then.

I’m still waiting for that boxer vs table-tennis player link. :rolleyes:

36

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;951908]This is what I talked about – if YOU don’t personally experience it, then you can’t get it.

The object lesson is that we only get good at doing what we are used to doing, both situationally and in terms of intensity. Once someone steps outside of what they are used to doing (for example, going at an intensity they aren’t used to or if you put them in a situation they aren’t used to), then they crumble.

Many TMAists don’t believe – and don’t want to believe – this to be the case.[/QUOTE]

I think your pushing this further than need be, there are more factors at work and while you may have a point at face value, its not as pertinent as you think IMO.

One main factor is intent - the intent of the judoka is on hitting the oppoenent as many times as possible, where as the intent of the Kendo peoeple is landing a killing blow and in the context of training to then stop !

I see te Kendo guys landing the first blow several times.

They realise the reality that if you had a real sword the first one to land is generally the winner and the opponent having been cut wont be able to act as the judokas are in this isolated setting.

Ive experienced this when training Chi do - even with a big smack of a wooden Do on the lead arm of a training partner they still then try to use it for thier own attack when the reality of its further use after being cut is fairly low percentage.

Second this is there first attempt knowing now how the judokas behave, id say the learning curve would be steep for the Kendo people given the chance to rinse and repeat. Perhaps they held to etiquette etc etc.

Ive been to other VT schools and had issue with the depth and intensity people used in Chi Sau drills, because im an outsider they go harder and make it more about a light to medium spar than a drill platform for feeling and experiencing technique/s etc ive asked people do you want to Chi Sau or spar ? because Chi Sau isnt sparring and sparring isnt Chi Sau - state the ruleset and ill be happy to be involved…

SO i see this as one of those situations - we dont know the mindset of the people involved nor do we know thier real skill level.

Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50

  1. the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
  2. the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.

Rulesets are huge contributors to the outcome.

As far as them getting taken down, well last time i checked Kendo wasnt a ground style so… well done they beat scrubs - which you Terrence constantly berate TMA’s for !

Next time your on the tennis court fire a volley back at your opponent and before they have a chance to hit the ball back throw your raquet a them and yell “i win”.

See my point :stuck_out_tongue:

DREW

37

You should see how much kendo changes when you go from Shinai to Bokken…
As for the clip, Most of the kendo guys I know don’t really understand the difference between what they do and full contact stick fighting or even real sword work, but they are quick to grasp it when they are exposed to it.
Most people do just “whack away” with the shinai when they first pick one up, of course they wouldn’t ever win even a beginners match in a tournament.
Many would do well to remember that scene from the 7 samurai, the duel scene near the beginning, where it is made clear the importance of “ma ai”.

38

[QUOTE=Liddel;952100]Take off the gear and lets see them go at it again - ill bet a 50

  1. the judokas are not as braisen without protection.
  2. the Kendo people are not as conservitive and are more aggresive.[/QUOTE]

I’ll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear.

The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.

39

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;952199]
The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element.[/QUOTE]

you’re missing the point that everyone has tried to make to you. you might as well give the judo guys a gun and say “the judo guys would have shot and killed the kendo guys easily”

40

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;952199] I’ll take you up on that 50. Having fought a number of times with no gear, I can tell you that grappling happens a lot quicker and a lot more often when you go with no gear. [/QUOTE]

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;952199]
The judo guys would have been even more dominant because they would have quickly moved to grappling/ground range where the kendo guys would have been out of their element. [/QUOTE]

Your blending my points here…

I wouldnt dare to disagree Dale given your experience in that environment vs mine but i was addressing the issues seperately.

Id put a 50 up for another go at a sword ‘Duel’ where the first blow is the winner :smiley: no grappling !

Then i made the point thats constantly put out on this forum that beating people with less than average skills in any given fight area - standup - clinch - ground - is no big deal, which clearly applies to the situation where the Judokas took them down as the kendo stylists are not familair with ground techs so…fairly obvious outcome there. :o

I did say IMO T has a point at face value, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out, but its just not all that poignant :stuck_out_tongue:

Are you saying that if i went on into a judo school asked to roll and then in the mix started throwing bombs that it wouldnt stuff at least one of the students game ?

DREW