attn: mafuyee

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

wow! lots of stuff… where to begin.

i know…

yenhoi,
are you a pothead, yenhoi? do you do drugs?

you killed your whole argument.

  • ‘someone punches at you with something that may very roughly resemble a cross’

so… joy jones jr., doesn’t throw crosses. - the way his fist just moves very roughly resembles some sort of ‘textbook’ cross. - he uses his arm and fists to punch you in the face. - crosses don’t exist.

what purpose does it serve to argue semantics?
(what is, “IS”? - hello??)

… are you trying to say that when it comes to actual combat, because of panicked circumstances, people’s brains tend to shut down, and all training goes out the window?

if so, i would say that for some people this may be true; but not for all.

  • i got into a ‘fight’ at a slayer concert a few months back, and i can tell you exactly what technique i used. - it was ‘fist under elbow’. - i just punched him once, medium hard, and he apologized, and shook my hand. (go figure!)
  • as far as required mental calculations go; that is why simplicity is best. - whether cross, straight blast, tiger claw, palm strike, etc, i’m using the same defense. - you don’t have to think. - if you’re eyes are open, you’ll see where the movement starts from, and without ‘thinking’, you’ll naturally feel like flinching. - high, if the percieved threat is high, and low, if it’s low; same with left or right. - and, hopefully you’ve trained yourself to react with an appropriate defense; otherwise, it’ll just be a ‘natural’ untrained reation.

when you have too many options, it slows your reaction time, definitely. - to the point where some people just freeze, or try to do a mix of things, and just generally botch their opportunity.

… and, just a bit of trivia:
in order for you to simply catch a ball, your brain has to do fifth integral calculus.

apo,
actually, according to yen, no one can throw a cross at you. - it’s impossible.

… and no one is talking about ‘living embodiments’ of anything.

as far as responses being a product of every experience you’ve ever had. - ok. i’ll grant you that. on some esoteric level, every life experience (not restricted to m.a. experience) up till that moment has an influence on that response. - and, following those lines, you can never do the same thing twice.

  • as far as the downward elbow gunting; that is a technique that you trained. - wether you learned it as a ‘*******’ technique, is irrelavent. the technique is what it is. - certainly you can’t be implying that every technique you do is a hybrid ******* mix?? - if i do a muay thai round kick; i’m doing a muay thai technique at that moment. - not tai chi.

re: ‘too diverse’.
the question is, how much time does one have to train?? the fewer things you focus on, the better you can get at them.

in either art, escrima, or tai chi, there is too much for us mere mortals to master. the people who have ‘mastered’ an entire art are few. - those that we may consider really good, mastered just a few things, and maybe just learned the rest for posterity(?). - even chang tung sheng wasn’t a master of every shuai chaio throw(?) he could probably do them all; but i don’t think he ever claimed to have mastered every throw.

burton is a great example. - he’s learned a ridiculous amount of stuff, and loves to go through every permutation of every technique. - however, he’s not too great at fighting. - he has natural ability, yet people who seem to have less natural ability, and have trained far less, can whup his butt. - when it comes down to it, burton relies on a few basics, which he doesn’t have too much time to work on, what, with everything else he’s got to practice.

red5,
yeah. lots of people suck. - so what? - that has no relevance to the statement that people can relatively quickly get good at the fighting aspect of tai chi.

what does that mean to me? - that means that if someone is attacking, and you can, based on what you were taught, handle that threat, and emerge the victor; hopefully without any harm to you, then - mission accomplished.

you can argue all you want that the person wasn’t doing ‘textbook tai chi, according to red’, but, that so isn’t a concern of mine. - if it worked, it worked. - will you really care, if your weighting wasn’t just so, or if you had a little too much tension in your shoulders when you did it; or if your head wasn’t held erect? - lighten up.

if you think it takes 10 years for someone learning tai chi, to be able to get in the ring against a san sao fighter of 1 years training… then, that’s too bad.

i say, that given the proper training, a person with 1 year tai chi training, can match or beat a person with 1 year san sao training.

  • most of you w.c. classmates have no appreciable skill? - that’s too bad. - perhaps you think fighting should look like chi sao? - or perhaps a shaw bros movie?

if a w.c. guy can pull off a lop sao, to chain punching, against the average sucker punch. - that’s something. - what? no one in your school can do that? - or, it’s not wing chun, because it was sloppy? - too simple?

merryp;
my point was, that i think you took the degree analogy a bit too far. - i get the impression that your brain is like a raging river, and can sometimes overshoot a curve, sending you off into the proverbial left field. - the natural result of which could take the form of ‘biffs’ to the back of the head from one’s peers.

some of my friends do that too. - that’s when i have to smack them around a bit.

22

Actually, I don’t think I took it too far at all. Your suggestion was that you would want to learn from a “specialist,” who had followed the linear chain to the top.

What I was pointing out is that in the PhD world, your analogy doesn’t hold water because these people are undeniably expert in their field, that expertise is informed, oftentimes, by experience or education in other arenas.

And so it can be with Martial Arts. I don’t want to learn “linearly.” I want to learn from somebody who has knowledge informed by a variety of sources, not just “sifu said.”

I think I can sum up Yenhoi’s point–you know, the one you dismissed as inherently contradictory?

He’s saying this–take a bob and weave. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cross-like attack, a hook to the head, a roundhouse swipe a hammerfist, knifehand or ridgehand. These vaguely similar motions can all be countered by a bob-and-weave approach. You’re not identifying an attack, and assessing it and responding with the appropriate counter, you’re using a principle (bob-and-weave) to counter another principle (attack with the hand to the head.) The ways to apply that principle are quite diverse. A “techinque,” is just a neuromuscular drill to get your body to move the right way to apply that principle.

Lastly, I know enough about me that I’m not the right guy to try and kick around. :wink:

23

Mafuyee, I am going to take a guess here and say thta you dont have much experience in A.)fighting, B.) Taichi, and C.) Wingchun. Why? Well let me explain…

“yeah. lots of people suck. - so what? - that has no relevance to the statement that people can relatively quickly get good at the fighting aspect of tai chi.”

It’s relevance is the very point, if you suck at taichi you wont use it effectively and can’t fight with it or any of the skils you learned and like many will probably just get trounced unless, fighting in th kwoon/dojo. You might pull of something that resembles a taichi technique and it might just work once, but don’t fool yourself into believing you understand or do taichi well or even well enough to fight effectively most of the time.
It’s not about lightening up Muyafee its about understanding the art. If you are overweighted or out of alignment, you arent doing it correctly and probably will most likely just get yourself in trouble. Also, Yenhois example then falls into place you are just flailing away and some of it may or may not resemble the art you are studying.

“if you think it takes 10 years for someone learning tai chi, to be able to get in the ring against a san sao fighter of 1 years training… then, that’s too bad.”

You can study taichi for two months and get into the ring with a sanshou fighter :rolleyes: but you are not going to be doing taichi, and you are probably just going to get yourself killed flailing away. :wink:

“* most of you w.c. classmates have no appreciable skill? - that’s too bad. - perhaps you think fighting should look like chi sao? - or perhaps a shaw bros movie”

I’ll make you a deal, you grow up and I will lighten up?

I can buy into what Yenhoi is saying, mostly because most martial artist don’t train enough to get past their natural reactions and start really fighting. Like you they believe they can go out and learn taichi from a videotape or in just 6 quick weeks start fighting like a pro :rolleyes: . What really happens is that these guys go out and get themselves beat badly by people who are seriously training, don’t believe? Go check out some of the video footage at Mcdojo.com. Your going to see your atypical CMA/Karate guy getting his ass kicked by someone who is putting in blood sweat and tears to learn how to fight.

What do you think is going ot hapen when some guy who puts in 3-4 hours a day training his butt of goes up against someone with your attitude, “Hey, I have been studying taichi for a whole year, I should be able to take this guy!” Watch the videos and see…

It’s not about the art, its about the people, and most people are fooling themselves. Sorry Muyafee but you have to try harder and my guess is work harder as well :wink:

As for yenhois point, my guess is that as anyone knows, or should know, things go badly when you get in the $hit, it gets messy and nothing is clean and “shaw bros” as you so quaintly put it. You may be bobbing and weaving but you watch the videotape afterwards and you will probably cringe. But Wait!!! Joy Jones Jr knows how!!! Hmmmm, I wonder if he has only been doing what he does for a year or so? Maybe he just does a couple of hours a week, but since its a fighting art he probably got it in about a year and after that another 6 months he was able to get in the ring with the big boys? :rolleyes: Mayeb you should talk to Joy Jones jr and explain to him your theory and see what he says…:wink:

24

mafuyee,

well, i feel like i set you up for a debate you weren’t really looking for. and for that, i apologize. it wasn’t my intention.

with that in mind, i’m just going to have to accept that we disagree here. and respectfully bow out.

sorry.

stuart b.

25

ok i found something intresting for u…
it’s might related with thread or not but echo’s my sentiments about MA fighitng

One day a martial art school signed up a new student. As usual the head student gave the new guy a “welcome” fight, yet he couldn’t convincingly defeat the new comer . “Do not be discourage,” the teacher comforted his head student in private, “give him some time to train in our system!” Half a year later the head student beated up the new guy without breaking a sweat.

-TkdWarrior-

26

Originally posted by red5angel
[B]“if you think it takes 10 years for someone learning tai chi, to be able to get in the ring against a san sao fighter of 1 years training… then, that’s too bad.”

You can study taichi for two months and get into the ring with a sanshou fighter :rolleyes: but you are not going to be doing taichi, and you are probably just going to get yourself killed flailing away. ;)[/B]

Please note, I’m not really taking a position on the cross-training debate…

But Shooter’s gym up in Edmonton has been fielding fighters that go into NHB events and do quite well after a year or so of training nothing but Tai Chi. So, the idea that it takes years and years to become an effective Tai Chi fighter is demonstrably fallacious.

27

Fatherdog, My contention is not that you can take taichi for a year and fight, my contention is that you cannot learn taichi in a year and fight effectively with those skills.
If you throw some mediocre fighters into mediocre tournemants with othe rmediocre fighters they might be successful but that doesnt change the fact they are still mediocre.

Ultimately ANyONE, can fight and ANYONE can learn an art, but not ANYONE can learn to fight using an art successfully.

the other distinction to be made is this Muyafee states that as long as “IT” works then that is fine by him. Well, if you went to the garage with your buddy and just screwed around for a year straight, you might get “IT” to work. What I am talking about is using the skills precisely and effectively as they were designed ot be used.
My specific exmaple was with wingchun because its what I have been training in for a few years and I have had the oppurtunity to see quite a cross section of wingchun artist. almost all of them mediocre at best.

Fatherdog, does shooters Gym have a webpage or something I could go check out? I would like to see some footage of some of their 1 year taichi fighters as well.
You see, For somepeople, just being able to fight successfully is fine with them, and that’s fine with me as well, if that is your goal, no problems. What bothers me is when you start to claim you can fight using your system effectively when really you can’t.
It’s sort of a disease floating around the MA worl din my opinion right now, a cross between the desire to want to be good at it and the laziness of your average human being. Even in the distant past when you get all these legendary stories of these guys who had incredible skill, you dont get dozens of stories, they are few and far between, becaus emost people don’t have what it takes to get really good at a style, although they may get good at fighting.

28

Originally posted by red5angel
Fatherdog, My contention is not that you can take taichi for a year and fight, my contention is that you cannot learn taichi in a year and fight effectively with those skills.

And, as I said, his fighters are entering tournaments and doing well with just a year or two of training nothing but tai chi.


If you throw some mediocre fighters into mediocre tournemants with othe rmediocre fighters they might be successful but that doesnt change the fact they are still mediocre.

I think that making that statement without knowing anything about Shooter’s gym, the tournament involved, or the fighters involved is both ignorant and insulting to both of them.


Fatherdog, does shooters Gym have a webpage or something I could go check out? I would like to see some footage of some of their 1 year taichi fighters as well.

I don’t believe they have a webpage, no, but they’ve posted extensively on these boards in the past. Do a search on the usernames “Shooter” and “beautifulvaley”.


You see, For somepeople, just being able to fight successfully is fine with them, and that’s fine with me as well, if that is your goal, no problems. What bothers me is when you start to claim you can fight using your system effectively when really you can’t.

If they are fighting successfully, and they have trained in nothing but Tai Chi, I’d have to assume they’re using Tai Chi effectively.

29

And, as I said, his fighters are entering tournaments and doing well with just a year or two of training nothing but tai chi.

I think that making that statement without knowing anything about Shooter’s gym, the tournament involved, or the fighters involved is both ignorant and insulting to both of them.

Fatherdog, you are more then welcome to your opinions, however, whether it appears to be ignorant or not I don’t believe that if these fighters were set before one of the acknowledged Taichi masters in china, they would impress them much. taichi isn’t set up to be learned in a year or two and I highly doubt that if you watched those tournemants you would see much real taichi. Of course like Muyafee says, if it works…

Its the same response you will get form the wingchun community but I have personal experience with them and whether its insulting or not it still stands. In the past I have seen posts from beautifulvalley but I was under the impression he also had more experience then a year or two.
The other question that begs to be asked is what sort of tournemants are these? Puch hands touneys? MMA tourneys? How are the levels of the fighters involved, are these 1-2 year fighters mixing it up with people of different levels or are they competing with individuals with equal experience?

If they are fighting successfully, and they have trained in nothing but Tai Chi, I’d have to assume they’re using Tai Chi effectively.

I have to disgaree with this. There was a video going around for a while an old black and white of two supposed kungfu masters, guys who had been training for years, who fought a few rounds as a benefit or something. You see very little of anything but these guys flailing at each much like Yenhoi describes most fights to be. It actually looked alot like that vidoe of the two bikers fighting that comes around from time to time. their punches were connecting, and there was a “winner” but that doesn’t mean he did his art any justice.

Like I stated before just because one can fight and one studies a martil art doesn’t make one good at the art he studies, just fighting.

30

Originally posted by red5angel
Fatherdog, you are more then welcome to your opinions, however, whether it appears to be ignorant or not I don’t believe that if these fighters were set before one of the acknowledged Taichi masters in china, they would impress them much.

I never said you could learn all there is to know about Tai Chi in a year or two. I said that you could learn enough to use it to fight effectively, which you should be able to do with just about any martial art. After two years of training, I doubt that a BJJ stylist would look very impressive to Rickson Gracie, but I’d expect him to do okay using BJJ in a fight.


taichi isn’t set up to be learned in a year or two and I highly doubt that if you watched those tournemants you would see much real taichi.

That is your opinion. I haven’t studied Tai Chi, so I’m not about to declare what is or isn’t Tai Chi. When several people all study nothing but Tai Chi, all fight in tournaments, all discuss using Tai Chi principles and techniques in those tournaments, I’m inclined to accept at face value that they’re using Tai Chi.


The other question that begs to be asked is what sort of tournemants are these? Puch hands touneys? MMA tourneys? How are the levels of the fighters involved, are these 1-2 year fighters mixing it up with people of different levels or are they competing with individuals with equal experience?

They were open MMA tournaments, with fighters of varying levels of experience in open competition. In the specific tournament I remember details being posted about, beautifulvaley (who at the time had a year of Tai Chi and no other training) fought and won against a relatively accomplished kickboxer with some BJJ/wrestling background.

31

Well, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I find that sometimes it is a matter of how you percieve what is considered good use of or not.
For example, I have only met 1 Martial artist who I feel could use his art with as much confidence as any one ever could have, effectively and at a high level.
There are several levels of distinction in my mind, but maybe not in others. My wingchun is a good example, I have met plenty of people who some would consider good, but I have only met one I consider good. The rest were mediocre at best. This is definitely not a statement of their ability compared to mine however, but there are subtle tricks of the trade in each martial art. Some are easier to learn then others. I know its practically heresy to say that but I believe it to be true.
For instance, one could become quite proficient in Boxing much quicker then in my opinion one could reach an equal level in say Taichi. Some of the basics are there in both arts, structure, power delivery, etc… but each chooses to do it just a little differently.
I might be willing to say the differnece is low skill and high skill but to me there is little difference. If you are using an art at a low skill, sure you know a few tricks that might get you through but you arent good at the art.
I don’t know if this is making any sense FD, I have been arguing this very issue with wingchun guys for a while now but they don’t seem to get it either, in general. All I know is that in my beliefe, it takes a little more to be good at an art then being able to pull of a few of its techniques and in my experience I have met very few people who are at a high level of skill. I don’t believe most people have what it takes to get that high level of skill. They are normal people living normal lives, it’s not necessarily a bad thing, until these people start claiming they are more then they are.

32

Originally posted by red5angel
I don’t know if this is making any sense FD, I have been arguing this very issue with wingchun guys for a while now but they don’t seem to get it either, in general.

No, honestly, it doesn’t. To me, an art is A) a set of techniques, that B) are applied based on a coherent set of principles. If you are using nothing but the techniques from Tai Chi, applying them according to Tai Chi principles, you’re doing Tai Chi. You’re certainly not doing it as well after a year as the guy who’s been doing it for 20, but that’s true of anything. I don’t really understand how you can say that, just because they’ve only been training a year, the Tai Chi that they’re winning MMA fights with must be bad Tai Chi, or not Tai Chi.

If this means we must agree to disagree, that’s fine; I’ve never taken Tai Chi, so I’m not really going to argue the point. But conversely, since I’ve never taken Tai Chi, I’m more inclined to take Shooter’s word that he and his fighters (who train nothing but Tai Chi) are doing good Tai Chi than to take your word (a Wing Chun stylist, currently studying MMA, who has taken a little Tai Chi to supplement his kung fu, and has never seen Shooter or his fighters in action) that they’re not.

33

MP and AP have me all figured out.

Red5: I didnt mean to imply that fights are just flailing matches and fater fate and his pal experience roll dice with us. I also think it is possible to be a capable fighter in 1 year or less ( 6 months ) in nearly any art. Its how an art is trained, now how you spell its name. From my experience with Tai Chi, it would be entirely possible to train hard for a year and become a capable fighter, and then when you fight “look like your ‘using’ tai chi” or not “look like your ‘using’ tai chi.” Tai chi, since we are still on specifics, is probably the least technique bound style of fighting there is.

Techniques do not exist. Just familiar, handy names and labels. Techniques are really small training methods. You use a technique to train your body to do certain things all at once. You use some other techniques and training methods to train your body in small parts and in large complicated parts, all little segments like tactics, agility, speed, raw strength, power, explosiveness, etc, etc - they add together to make up whatever fighter or lack of fighter you have in you. Kinda like the power rangers, but with more or less asian stuff.

You cannot use a cross on your opponent, you can however, train the cross, and have wonderful results when it comes to fighting. You cannot use tai chi on someone (except yourself), but you can train tai chi, and have great results when it comes to not only fighting, but many other so-called benefits that come along with diciplined balanced study.

Mafuyee: im not sure how to respond to you anymore. I thought at first we were agreeing, and I was just making fun of your use of ‘techniques’ and ‘style.’ But I guess not. My loss I guess. FYI I do do drugs, that must explain it all. In the end, regardless of how you think ABOUT fighting, its how you train, and how you train that make the real difference.

34

apo,

i think we were just describing 2 sides of the same coin. - it’s really just a matter of personl philosophy. - there isn’t so much a ‘right and wrong’.

personally, my tai chi teacher has studied other arts. - tkd, escrima, northern shaolin, etc. - and he teachs forms from other systems. e.g. tung bei, tam tui, hsing-i etc. (if you care to learn them.)

but, when it comes down to it, he always resorts to using tai chi techniques. - it’s just what he trained the longest. (he used to be good at tkd; but, ask him to do that stuff now, and he’ll just laugh and shake his head. - his years of tkd training are not really reflected in the way he fights now.)

if you train in 2 arts concurrently, i’ve found that you will have a hybrid fighting method.
(i took hung ga and tai chi at the same time, for like 2 years. - my hung ga was soft, and my tai chi was hard. :smiley: doh!)

i think a cultural differences may be part of the equation as well. - well, you know how some cma’s can be about lineage, and whatnot. - the pillipino’s are probably more flexible in their views. (which is cool. - neither way is really right or wrong.)

fatherdog;
i thought your post was perfectly clear, and understandable. - it’s like pulling teeth, isn’t it?

red5;
i see the problem.

let me try to clarify; - lots of people have no fighting skill with tai chi, or any martial art. - but, with the right training, a person can get good at tai chi in a relatively short period of time. - they can go from sucky to pretty good, pretty quick. - the fact that a lot of people ‘suck’ has no bearing on the fact that one can get good at tai chi pretty quickly.

if you disagree that people can get good quickly; perhaps it’s just because you haven’t been exposed to that before. - but, if you keep an open mind, surely you can imagine that it could be possible, that that is true.

  • and, actually, in a way, i do know what you mean. - saying that most guys out there really don’t have a lot of skill. - i would have to agree with that. (i don’t think i have much skill either.)

BUT

here is where our thinking differs.

i think that lots of people out there aren’t any good, not because they didn’t learn enough; but rather, they’ve learned too much. - but they don’t know any of it well enough.

you may think that with years and years of piling on more and more ‘knowledge’, one day 10-20 years from now, you’ll be good.

… well, maybe if you’re lucky. - if you’re waiting for something to just ‘click’… you may have a long wait.

but, if you really want to get good; learn one technique.

yenhoi,
which came first? - application or form?

  • how will you use the ‘cross’ you train, in a fight? - confused? it’s not a trick question.
  • in football, there is a ‘technique’, called a ‘tackle’. - can one football player tackle another football player? - or would you say, ‘there is no such THING, as a tackle. - you can crash into another player, and take him to the gound, but, you’re not doing a tackle…’

** i see now what you are saying. - that the tai chi postures are not applications, in and of themselves. - they do not represent methods of defense or attack, but rather are like mini exercises meant to build up and develop something or other. each posture of the form are like individual music notes and applications are composed of various notes in unison, and fighting is like an unrehearsed free flowing jam session. - groovy.

i don’t think 100 years of training with that paradigm could turn anyone into a good fighter.

p.s. - yes, you doing drugs does explain it all.