In the chop fist it mentions that the footwork I’m curious about is called the Step-and-turn step, but the grey HopGar book doesn’t explain the theory behind the footwork…it mentions the names of the basic patterns in the books intro , but I’m curious to find out if the other books break down the traditional teaching behind the step-and-turn step…any idea what it is called in chinese, and if it has any info on it and you have the time, could you type it up for me please?
The action looks like just using kick-pivots to get into your stance…but I haven’t seen footwork like that in other styles!?
Have you?
I sent this to your pm but it was full and i’m hoping others may have info on the topic
I know how to pivot from bowstance into cat stance, but haven’t been taught any pivots like shown in the book…tho i only know the basics of Kaidos kajukenbo-Hop Gar style:)
I’m no expert when it comes to the history of CMA but I do not believe the Lama styles are rooted in CLF. Although I’ve noticed that many recent Lama teachers have trained in CLF and I’m not sure if thats a proximity thing or because they are both known for there long arm movements.
Its my understanding that the footwork and strategy are considerably different.
You would have to have some experience in both to really know the differences. Pictures really dont show enough, all anyone has to do is keep there arms straight out away from the body and it can look like any long arm style. I happen to like CLF as well as Hop Gar but I definatly recognize the differences between the two. My teacher is one of the few students of Sifu David Chin(pictures you are referring to are from his book) authorized by him to teach his Hop Gar, I dont claim to be an expert in the Hop Gar but I have seen it up close.
Originally posted by Palmer You would have to have some experience in both to really know the differences. Pictures really dont show enough, all anyone has to do is keep there arms straight out away from the body and it can look like any long arm style. I happen to like CLF as well as Hop Gar but I definatly recognize the differences between the two. My teacher is one of the few students of Sifu David Chin(pictures you are referring to are from his book) authorized by him to teach his Hop Gar, I dont claim to be an expert in the Hop Gar but I have seen it up close.
Hello Palmer, do you have any info on the step I’m enquiring about?. I realized I know one technique that uses the step-and-turn step…say you are on his inside and you shoot a left hand straight punch to his solar plexus in a leftside bow (crane) stance with the weight on your right leg…then your left hand rakes a claw counterclockwise upon his face opening him up for a right overhead to the left side of the temple…immediatily followed by a right side-stomp-slash kick to either his groin or lead knee.
The overhead/kick combo has the step-and-turn step within it I think…which leads me to beleive the step-and-turn step is simply kick-pivots used to create mass power in the TKF seed fists!?
I consider myself a beginner when it comes to the Hop Gar I am learning. I dont really have any written info other than the book those pages are from. The footwork in the first link is one of the more common types of footwork that is used . Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot. I wish I could help more but I’m afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:) My Sifu’s website is on my profile I noticed its down today for some reason but check there if you want to see some general info on Hop Gar. I’m not sure what your experiences are with the Hop Gar but one of our principles is every punch is thrown from a body position thats at least 7 inches from where the last punch was thrown from. This is even without moving the feet at times.
Originally posted by Palmer I consider myself a beginner when it comes to the Hop Gar I am learning. I dont really have any written info other than the book those pages are from. The footwork in the first link is one of the more common types of footwork that is used . Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot. I wish I could help more but I’m afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:) My Sifu’s website is on my profile I noticed its down today for some reason but check there if you want to see some general info on Hop Gar. I’m not sure what your experiences are with the Hop Gar but one of our principles is every punch is thrown from a body position thats at least 7 inches from where the last punch was thrown from. This is even without moving the feet at times.
I think we have a similar principle of punching, but I’m not exactly sure:) We have a lot of chain punching in our drills…like multiple strikes using the same hand…for instance slam a right ridge hand to the left temple then immediatly fire a right wiping-backfist to the right temple…then with the same hand you could sneak down for a palm strike or backfist to the groin etc…I have many drills that have those chain-linking hands.
“I wish I could help more but I’m afraid I would end up giving you false info and my Sifu would not be happy about that:)”
I can fully respect that:)
Check this link for more info on my style of Hopgar…all I know is Kaido got it from Harry Ng somehow…I don’t know if he was taught firsthand or if he picked it up from a friend/student of Sifu Ng…suppossedly Kaido was taught sanda drills orsomething!!?
Alot of what we do also is hitting again with the hand that has just hit. Usually this concept is working on a circle where you are just going back from the opposite direction you were just coming from and swivelling the waist also in the opposite direction. For example in the overhead punch photos if the opponent did not go down you could immediatly bring your striking hand back up hitting with an upward backfist swivelling the waist in the opposite direction and following through with the rear hand. Working with the wooden blocks really develops these upward hand strikes.
Sifu Chins Hop Gar is also from Harry Ng so there may be many similarities.
Some of the footwork that I learned thats similar to whats shown with the whip punch (third link)I believe is geared towards the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot."
one more thing…is this theory kind of like hitting him while on the run…which would be good training for fighting multiple opponnents?..in some of Kaido’s drills there is a few techniques that are used on the run so to speak, and they set up the oppennent for the finishing shot…there is one in the first form that is very Pakua-like…against a right punch, step to the left into a left bowstance and left palm slap the opponnents elbow, and then quickly step in with your right leg so you are almost behind the opponnent and fire either a short uppercut or a side-palm to his right ribs…and then you can step behind your right leg with your left and turn counterclockwise so you end up in either a right cat stance and trap him with a right then left palm around the shoulder-neck area and then finish with a left palm trap and right backfist to the back of his neck…or you can end up in right crane stance (wieght on the left leg…sideward bowstance) and as you rotate into the stance you check his upper back-neck area with a left wiping palm and slam down his spine with a raking right hand overhead punch using the big two knuckles down his spine…then of course you can follow up with a left straight punch to his kidneys or lower back while shuffling into a left crane stance.
The Cat stance-paksau/backfist is from the first set, and the crane-overhead/chune choi is from the second set of Kaido’s Kajukenbo/Hop Gar:)
I really couldnt say it sounds good but I would have to see it to be more confident that I know what your talking about. There is some retreating that is taught but usually you are striking while you retreat and only enough to reposition for another offensive maneuver.
One thing I’ll mention is that Sifu Chin had learned Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi and Hsing-i/Yi Chuan with Kuo Lien Ying before studying with Harry Ng. We are all a product of our experiences and the Hsing-i principles have complimented alot of the Hop Gar. There philosophies are fairly similar even though they may appear very different in motion. So alot of the timing of our strikes with the feet and alot of the internal body work has come into the Hop Gar as we practice it. This has allowed me to appreciate both of them even more.
Originally posted by Palmer Alot of what we do also is hitting again with the hand that has just hit. Usually this concept is working on a circle where you are just going back from the opposite direction you were just coming from and swivelling the waist also in the opposite direction. For example in the overhead punch photos if the opponent did not go down you could immediatly bring your striking hand back up hitting with an upward backfist swivelling the waist in the opposite direction and following through with the rear hand. Working with the wooden blocks really develops these upward hand strikes.
Sifu Chins Hop Gar is also from Harry Ng so there may be many similarities.
Okay I got you…we have a few drills exactly like you mentioned…in fact exactly…off the head i can think of one
vs a right punch…jump into right crane and left grab the punch and hit his left temple with a right hammer fist, as the fist comes down you can hit his bicep to maximize the force of the movement and then slip the right hammer into a hammer to the groin, and quickly wipe back up with a right backfist to the right temple and follow through with a left backfist-nailing punch to the right temple…I have a few drills that use the exact order of technique you mentione…overhead to low shot, raise up and nail with the rear etc:)
I am familiar with Sifu Chin, as that grey Hop Gar book was the first material I ever found on the style back in like 1998:)
Cheers
Originally posted by Palmer I really couldnt say it sounds good but I would have to see it to be more confident that I know what your talking about. There is some retreating that is taught but usually you are striking while you retreat and only enough to reposition for another offensive maneuver.
One thing I’ll mention is that Sifu Chin had learned Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi and Hsing-i/Yi Chuan with Kuo Lien Ying before studying with Harry Ng. We are all a product of our experiences and the Hsing-i principles have complimented alot of the Hop Gar. There philosophies are fairly similar even though they may appear very different in motion. So alot of the timing of our strikes with the feet and alot of the internal body work has come into the Hop Gar as we practice it. This has allowed me to appreciate both of them even more.
Unfortunatly i didn’t get into the heavy sparring stages so my understanding of the theorys is very vague shall we say:)…but i think I get what you meant about the whip punch and the idea of hitting the opponent from multiple positions and not remaining in the same spot…the way the whip punch is set up in the photo I could see it used as a way to get around him basically…instead of boxing it out face to face so to speak!?
Kaido had degrees in kajukenbo and kali or arnis I’m told before he got the Hopgar so I’m not tottally sure what is what but I know I like what he does compared to a lot of the commercial schools out there, so I can appreciatte your comment about how the two styles have complimented each other:)
Thanks so much for your help
one more thing…all the examples I gave are from Kaido’s streetfighting short two man drills which comes from Kajukenbo style…Kaido has regular forms, but also taught using short application sets which is a famous training technique in styles like Kenpo…some schools go off with flowery applications, but kaido kept it short and simple…which I’m happy for as i have video of all of his forms, but I only know the differant applications to half of them…but I have almost all of his short drills so I pretty much get the intent behind all of his regular forms.
My question was in reference with the footwork you where asking for?
It’s qwa choy(or chuen la in the picture), cup choy( or fahn jong in the picture) with diu ma, chin see ma ( turn step, scissor stance, advance). It’s using the same power generation of CLF.
The two hands being shown in the pictures may look similar but there are other variations that are different. One of the big differences is the circling the opponent from a posture that has your shoulder towards th opponents chest and your chest perpendicular to them as opposed to facing them directly. If you ever have the opportunity to see a Hop Gar form I think you would agree that it looks different than CLF.
David Chin is from Canton originally and grew up training CLF he didnt meet Harry Ng until living in California. There would have been no need to learn the Hop Gar if it was pretty much the same thing as CLF.
I didn’t want to say that is the same Hop Gar and CLF, just the picture looks similar. I understand that with a picture there are a lot of things left to imagination.
Look at the principles - “Sim” in particular. Many branches of Lion’s Roar! use the positional aspects of Sim, as described in the earlier posts on this thread.
A very high exponent and advocate is GM Lo-Wai-Keung of Lama-Pai in Hong-Kong.
You need to understand the principles otherwise the actions make far less sense.
Originally posted by Palmer The two hands being shown in the pictures may look similar but there are other variations that are different. One of the big differences is the circling the opponent from a posture that has your shoulder towards th opponents chest and your chest perpendicular to them as opposed to facing them directly. If you ever have the opportunity to see a Hop Gar form I think you would agree that it looks different than CLF.
David Chin is from Canton originally and grew up training CLF he didnt meet Harry Ng until living in California. There would have been no need to learn the Hop Gar if it was pretty much the same thing as CLF.
I have videos of Tat Mau wongs CLF and it is definatly way differant than Kaidos hopgar…Kaidos style has more of that Dragon-body-coil behind the frame of the forms, wheras i notice CLf that I have seen has more of that leopard-springy power to it…but I’m just a simple caveman so these high level concepts are beyond me:) thinking of a saturday night live special about the caveman lawyer
