Diego check your PM’s
Jaza- No problem like I said I like CLF alot its a good style IMO and have no problem with Hop Gar being compared to it. Having been exposed to both I just recognize that there are distinct differences.
Originally posted by Simhanada
[B]Diego,
Look at the principles - “Sim” in particular. Many branches of Lion’s Roar! use the positional aspects of Sim, as described in the earlier posts on this thread.
A very high exponent and advocate is GM Lo-Wai-Keung of Lama-Pai in Hong-Kong.
You need to understand the principles otherwise the actions make far less sense. [/B]
Hello is this Steve? 
Sim: Sanskrit: Avarana: That which veils, conceals, or surrounds the real nature of beings or things. ‘To evade, draw-out, to deceive’: Moksha. The opponent may be drawn into a Bardo state thru such means, by directing them into inappropriate action. All forms of evasion and drawing as conventionally understood could fit this Guna, provided, that the overall management of the conflict is with intention to control the Bardo Field.
i get what you said…Sim: Sanskrit: Avarana: That which veils, conceals, or surrounds the real nature of beings or things.
that pretty much sums up what i was going on about with the hitting on the run/getting around him so to speak comment…kinda like a deadly game of cat and mouse, drawing your opponnent into a place where he wishes he didn’t enter:)
cheers
Diego,
“Sim” is often practiced ‘outside’ the gate, but, the Chinese character for Sim is a man in motion inside a door. The Indian understanding comes from action within the door - the combat Bardo field is represented in Hindu tradition as action within the inbetween spaces, the cross-over points, neither in, nor out, ‘Narasimha’ - the Man-Lion deity ‘Inside The Door’. How each tradition or Pai expresses this depends on long years of cultural transformation and personal practice by generations of teachers. If you want an applied esoteric understanding, something that will give you insight into the original intention of ‘sim’, then you should study Narasimha. Contact is closer than many today would expect.
I guess I might as well stick in my imput for 4 years of Hop Gar experience, so to me it’s like this:
The first link to me looks like a chuyrn wye kern-cup choy combination with poi bai sau that for some reason uses an odd stance in the middle (picture number 6.) I’ve never seen that stance in Hop Gar. What the heck is Staple’s hand doing up in the air like that at the end of the combo?!
The second link is a variation on poy-e-sau done and chay sen in response to a high punch rather than a normal height punch. The first stance in picture number one is kind of stange to me as well.
The last link is too small, so I can’t tell what it is.
Peace Y’all
Originally posted by Simhanada
[B]Diego,
“Sim” is often practiced ‘outside’ the gate, but, the Chinese character for Sim is a man in motion inside a door. The Indian understanding comes from action within the door - the combat Bardo field is represented in Hindu tradition as action within the inbetween spaces, the cross-over points, neither in, nor out, ‘Narasimha’ - the Man-Lion deity ‘Inside The Door’. How each tradition or Pai expresses this depends on long years of cultural transformation and personal practice by generations of teachers. If you want an applied esoteric understanding, something that will give you insight into the original intention of ‘sim’, then you should study Narasimha. Contact is closer than many today would expect. [/B]
can i find the info i need on narasimha on your webpage?
in a hurry right now:)
Hop gar…care to rewrite your post without the chinese terminology:) you lost me!
Cerebus your pm is full man:)…just got that white crane book thanks again and merry christmas etc
i will get that article to yall peeps soon, my moms comp crashed and i’m lazy etcetc:cool:
Diego,
There is much more on the site, here in some on teh Bardo concept, and it relates to ‘Sim’:
The Bardo concept (Tibetan) originates in the Indo-Aryan Sanatana Dharma (Hindu) tradition as ‘Antarabhala’, meaning literally ‘in-between births’. As ‘Antarala’ it refers to any in-between or transitory state, including those ‘spaces’ and ‘times’ between movements and thoughts and between actions and reactions.
These Bardo’s include spatio-temporal ‘gaps’ in combat, in ‘information processing’, and in those transcendent points of creation or instantiation, into the mental, or physical, planes.
In The Tantric Lion’s Roar! Martial art, the Bardo-field represents both an internal ‘moment’ within which to realize the attainment of Bodhicitta (Buddhist) or union with Brahma (Sanatana Dharma).
It is also the battlefield of ‘Maya’ (Illusion), and the temporal-spatial state within which to undergo ‘Chod’ or 'Cutting Severance.
The Chod ritual is deeply connected with the Tibetan Tantric practice of the same name:
“Chod, meaning cutting through, is a Buddhist Tantric practice. In Tibetan Buddhist Tantra it is taught to beginners for accumulation of merits; it is also practiced by ardent devotees for realization of Dharmakaya— the pinnacle of Buddhist realization.” See Link: The Chod Ritual (Non Martial Tantra) As in non-martial Tantra, so too in the Lion’s Roar! Martial-Tantra-yana, Guru Padmasambhava - The Lion Roaring Guru, plays a central part, See Link: The Lion’s Roar Guru: Padmasambhava
In Martial Tantra, the first principle is Chinnatti (to penetrate) as in the ‘penetration to the truth’ within Buddhism. This occurs internally as a Bardo-Chod (Antar-Ala Chid: Sanskrit). The goal is to ‘offer the Body’ as in non-Martial Chod. Externally, this manifests as a Kinetic form: the First Seed Technique of the Lion’s Roar! Martial Art, known in Sanskrit as Chinatti-Chid or Chinna-Chinnatti- ‘The Penetrating Cut’.
There is isomorphism between internal state and external action - i.e. they are the same.
Therefore, the First Seed Principle and First seed Action BOTH instantiate Bardo-Chod, the ‘Cutting severance’.
In strictly martial terms, the Bardo-Field is the field of Mastery of the Art. All actions instantiate and culminate within the Bardo:
"The idea is to open all available Bardo voids for us, and to close them for our opponent. What happens here is that the opponent is reduced to ‘reacting’ to closure, and cannot initiate or create action. Bardo’s (Antarala’s - Sanskrit) exist as spatial and temporal (time) intervals. The spatial Bardo is the creation point for action, and the temporal Bardo is a kind of ‘cyber-space’ for the brains information processing. The Spatial Bardo is where the ‘Rupa’ of Form is created or at least ‘manifestly instantiated’. The cognitive (Brain) Bardo is where the ‘Nama’ (name/principle) develops. In Hinduism, nothing existed before its Nama and its Rupa, and nothing does literally ‘exist’ until these are distinguished… or ‘created’. They are illusions caused by apperception or awareness by the subjective mind (in Hinduism) but, they nevertheless represent experiential ‘reality’.
In the Han-Chinese Lion’s Roar! tradition principles:
Chune, penetrates the Bardo field, Sim, draws the oponent into a closed Bardo that has no manifestation or creation point for any ‘Rupa’ on his part, and no mental Bardo for the Nama to guide the Rupa. It is a true void, one collapsed to ‘singularity’ like a ‘Black-Hole’ in physics. Jeet finds the “moments” of arc, or thought-realization, and arrests them, hence the interception before being fully formed. Chon is the ‘completion’ of action in the Bardo which results in annihilation at that ‘point’ in space, and at that point in thought/time.
The defence against this is have spare Bardo space, within which to operate information processing, so you have a kind of partitioned Namarupa, like a partitiond hard-drive on a personal computer. The spare RAM available to trained information processing allows you to ‘quantum leap’ from one Bardo field to another, and, to run one Bardo ahead in time and space of the ‘actual’ one - the one where the engagement is taking palce. This ‘virtual’ Bardo is therefore independent of actual immediate reality, and is a projection ahead in time and space. If your opponent closes your ‘immediate’ Bardo, your virtual Bardo field will already have computed a response and then initiates a new trajectory (firing-off point) for switching - at this point, the virtual Bardo becomes ‘imposed’ onto the actual engagement, and so a new Nama, and a new Rupa are spontaneously created in action".
NOTE THE ROLE OF KRISHNA’S 4TH AVATAR “NARASIMHA” IN TANTRIC MARTIAL ARTS:
Below is interesting, as an example of Lion Symbolism, and, of working the Psychic Bardo- Field with Narasimha as a ‘Yidam’ to strengthen the connection to the ‘inner Lion’ and its Roar!
The following is a short description of Vishnu in his Avatar as the ‘Man-Lion’. Note his ‘Bardo’ state as Half-Man, Half-Lion Also, his action is at cross-over points and times (Antarala’s/Bardo’s)
From this, we can utilize appropriate imagery as the Man-Lion - as in a Yidam process, to work Tantrically in the Bardo-States:
The Man-Lion (Narasimha). “A demon had been granted the boon that it could not be killed by man or animal; inside or outside its house; by day or by night. It roamed the world causing distress and chaos. Vishnu became half-man, half-lion to kill the demon. He was neither man nor animal. He executed the demon on its threshold, neither in nor out of the house, at sunset - neither day nor night”.
Vishnu (Krishna) is a Hindu deity, but, there is no problem with working him as a Yidam in a ‘Buddhist’ sense, or indeed a Hindu one, as Hinduism is open to all branches of religion.
Narasimha can remind us of the Bardo state between ‘human’ ego identified consciousness (the 'little ego self or atman with a small ‘a’) and a theriomorph - a mixed animal or full animal level of consciousness. In Lion’s Roar! we utilize the cross-modal Bardo states of mind to tap into transformative Tantric powers.
The Bardo Warrior instantiates the essence of the Lion’s Roar! Tantric Martial Art.
Om Simhanada Vajramushti Sangha Hum
Originally posted by Simhanada
[B]Diego,
There is much more on the site, here in some on teh Bardo concept, and it relates to ‘Sim’:
The Bardo concept (Tibetan) originates in the Indo-Aryan Sanatana Dharma (Hindu) tradition as ‘Antarabhala’, meaning literally ‘in-between births’. As ‘Antarala’ it refers to any in-between or transitory state, including those ‘spaces’ and ‘times’ between movements and thoughts and between actions and reactions.
These Bardo’s include spatio-temporal ‘gaps’ in combat, in ‘information processing’, and in those transcendent points of creation or instantiation, into the mental, or physical, planes.
In The Tantric Lion’s Roar! Martial art, the Bardo-field represents both an internal ‘moment’ within which to realize the attainment of Bodhicitta (Buddhist) or union with Brahma (Sanatana Dharma).
It is also the battlefield of ‘Maya’ (Illusion), and the temporal-spatial state within which to undergo ‘Chod’ or 'Cutting Severance.
The Chod ritual is deeply connected with the Tibetan Tantric practice of the same name:
“Chod, meaning cutting through, is a Buddhist Tantric practice. In Tibetan Buddhist Tantra it is taught to beginners for accumulation of merits; it is also practiced by ardent devotees for realization of Dharmakaya— the pinnacle of Buddhist realization.” See Link: The Chod Ritual (Non Martial Tantra) As in non-martial Tantra, so too in the Lion’s Roar! Martial-Tantra-yana, Guru Padmasambhava - The Lion Roaring Guru, plays a central part, See Link: The Lion’s Roar Guru: Padmasambhava
In Martial Tantra, the first principle is Chinnatti (to penetrate) as in the ‘penetration to the truth’ within Buddhism. This occurs internally as a Bardo-Chod (Antar-Ala Chid: Sanskrit). The goal is to ‘offer the Body’ as in non-Martial Chod. Externally, this manifests as a Kinetic form: the First Seed Technique of the Lion’s Roar! Martial Art, known in Sanskrit as Chinatti-Chid or Chinna-Chinnatti- ‘The Penetrating Cut’.
There is isomorphism between internal state and external action - i.e. they are the same.
Therefore, the First Seed Principle and First seed Action BOTH instantiate Bardo-Chod, the ‘Cutting severance’.
In strictly martial terms, the Bardo-Field is the field of Mastery of the Art. All actions instantiate and culminate within the Bardo:
"The idea is to open all available Bardo voids for us, and to close them for our opponent. What happens here is that the opponent is reduced to ‘reacting’ to closure, and cannot initiate or create action. Bardo’s (Antarala’s - Sanskrit) exist as spatial and temporal (time) intervals. The spatial Bardo is the creation point for action, and the temporal Bardo is a kind of ‘cyber-space’ for the brains information processing. The Spatial Bardo is where the ‘Rupa’ of Form is created or at least ‘manifestly instantiated’. The cognitive (Brain) Bardo is where the ‘Nama’ (name/principle) develops. In Hinduism, nothing existed before its Nama and its Rupa, and nothing does literally ‘exist’ until these are distinguished… or ‘created’. They are illusions caused by apperception or awareness by the subjective mind (in Hinduism) but, they nevertheless represent experiential ‘reality’.
In the Han-Chinese Lion’s Roar! tradition principles:
Chune, penetrates the Bardo field, Sim, draws the oponent into a closed Bardo that has no manifestation or creation point for any ‘Rupa’ on his part, and no mental Bardo for the Nama to guide the Rupa. It is a true void, one collapsed to ‘singularity’ like a ‘Black-Hole’ in physics. Jeet finds the “moments” of arc, or thought-realization, and arrests them, hence the interception before being fully formed. Chon is the ‘completion’ of action in the Bardo which results in annihilation at that ‘point’ in space, and at that point in thought/time.
The defence against this is have spare Bardo space, within which to operate information processing, so you have a kind of partitioned Namarupa, like a partitiond hard-drive on a personal computer. The spare RAM available to trained information processing allows you to ‘quantum leap’ from one Bardo field to another, and, to run one Bardo ahead in time and space of the ‘actual’ one - the one where the engagement is taking palce. This ‘virtual’ Bardo is therefore independent of actual immediate reality, and is a projection ahead in time and space. If your opponent closes your ‘immediate’ Bardo, your virtual Bardo field will already have computed a response and then initiates a new trajectory (firing-off point) for switching - at this point, the virtual Bardo becomes ‘imposed’ onto the actual engagement, and so a new Nama, and a new Rupa are spontaneously created in action".
NOTE THE ROLE OF KRISHNA’S 4TH AVATAR “NARASIMHA” IN TANTRIC MARTIAL ARTS:
Below is interesting, as an example of Lion Symbolism, and, of working the Psychic Bardo- Field with Narasimha as a ‘Yidam’ to strengthen the connection to the ‘inner Lion’ and its Roar!
The following is a short description of Vishnu in his Avatar as the ‘Man-Lion’. Note his ‘Bardo’ state as Half-Man, Half-Lion Also, his action is at cross-over points and times (Antarala’s/Bardo’s)
From this, we can utilize appropriate imagery as the Man-Lion - as in a Yidam process, to work Tantrically in the Bardo-States:
The Man-Lion (Narasimha). “A demon had been granted the boon that it could not be killed by man or animal; inside or outside its house; by day or by night. It roamed the world causing distress and chaos. Vishnu became half-man, half-lion to kill the demon. He was neither man nor animal. He executed the demon on its threshold, neither in nor out of the house, at sunset - neither day nor night”.
Vishnu (Krishna) is a Hindu deity, but, there is no problem with working him as a Yidam in a ‘Buddhist’ sense, or indeed a Hindu one, as Hinduism is open to all branches of religion.
Narasimha can remind us of the Bardo state between ‘human’ ego identified consciousness (the 'little ego self or atman with a small ‘a’) and a theriomorph - a mixed animal or full animal level of consciousness. In Lion’s Roar! we utilize the cross-modal Bardo states of mind to tap into transformative Tantric powers.
The Bardo Warrior instantiates the essence of the Lion’s Roar! Tantric Martial Art.
Om Simhanada Vajramushti Sangha Hum [/B]
Thanks for the link
Hey Diego. Thanks for the heads-up about my PM box. Glad to hear you received the book.
HopGar, Are you a student of Ku sifu?
Originally posted by cerebus
Hey Diego. Thanks for the heads-up about my PM box. Glad to hear you received the book.
what year is that book from? Staples looks a lot younger than in the grey hop gar book which came out in 1980.
Hey Diego. That book is from around '73or '75, I forget exactly.
Originally posted by cerebus
Hey Diego. That book is from around '73or '75, I forget exactly.
yeah, that book is pretty basic compared to the grey book…glad i didn’t order it for the like 60 dollars some cats were charging…still good book to have in the archives tho:)
that tibetan monk book…does it break down the theory of the system more or is it just about monks?
Hmmmm. Well, it’s kind of an odd book. It doesn’t get in-depth about anything. It’s just a basic intro to such things as Chinese medicine, footwork, weapons, stances. It’s very basic too.
Originally posted by cerebus
Hmmmm. Well, it’s kind of an odd book. It doesn’t get in-depth about anything. It’s just a basic intro to such things as Chinese medicine, footwork, weapons, stances. It’s very basic too.
hm, you’d think for 200 dollars there would be a lot said…**** seceret lama style…i know more about freagin wing chun than i do hop gar…well at least i have way more wing chun/bruce lee books
The books were useful in their day, when there was nothing else. Now, people can communicate much easier, make contacts, go see people in person. It was harder in 1973 to learn anything about Lion’s Roar!, its easier now than its ever been. You guys know each other, chances are in those days that would never have happened.
Make the most of it.
Yeah, I’m actually a Hsing-I guy myself, but I collect martial arts books and have a gret interest in other kung fu styles (especially Lama, Hop Gar & White Crane).
And Diego, books are generally priced by what a seller thinks he can get for them (often based on how rare they are and a variety of other factors). The amount of info or quality of that info has nothing to do with it. I was lucky 'cause I found this book for just a few dollars. It’s interesting but definitely not something you wanna pay $200 bucks for.
i’m just annoyed that the only systems that it’s easy to find a lot of research on are styles that have big legends behind them…tai chi, wing chun, hung gar etc
why did i have to get hooked on a rare style:)
no complaints, i just wish more info would come out like how the wing chun guys have it cuz of bruce lee uno:)
Maybe Sifu Ross can make a movie on Chan Tai Shan and then we can get a bunch of books on the differant lineages etc.
peace
Oh and Cerebus, I’m still interested in obtaining a copy of that monk book, so when you have some spare time etc…cheers and happy holidays yall
Hunt1
I’m an ex-student. I couldn’t afford lessons any more. Currently taking Hsing-I but still practicing Hop Gar as well.
peace
Boy, so much is being said in this thread, I am not sure what are the real questions?