I’ve been doing some reading about the distinctions between a “student” and a “disciple.” And also the distinctions between different types of “disciples.” Is there any occurance in the U.S. of a master adopting a student as an actual disciple, in the traditional meaning of that term? Also, are there masters that decidely don’t adopt disciples?
That’s an odd question.
I have no idea what you mean by “traditional”. I’m assuming you mean that a family gives up a child to be raised by the “master”.
I wouldn’t rule out that any crazy s such as that is going on today but if it is someone needs to be in the “Busted” thread.
interesting topic
I would say there is a fine distinction between student and disciple. To me student is someone that trains and attends classes; no formal commitment…maybe even takes breaks from training. A Disciple is someone who commits their life to continuous training and their teacher. I would say this includes helping your teacher in times of need or providing care if needed.
That being said, I would like to think American Masters have “disciples” but they are just not formally advertised as they are in Shaolin. Some Shaolin masters adopt disciples and other don’t. Maybe they don’t want to deal with the drama. I have seen some American Masters develop a discipleship like relationship with a student, open a school together and only for it to end up on bad terms if the business venture didn’t work out. There are so many martial art masters in America it’s kind of hard to point who does and who doesn’t adopt disciples. If anyone knows who does feel free to educate me. 
Great Topic
Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.
I’m speaking hear of original asian-lineage bonafide generational masters from China that teach in the U.S. Masters that were themselves disciples of their Sifus back in the old country.
My curiousity stems from what I’m perceiving as difficulty being a serious student within a student population that has many types that in the old country would probably have been rejected by a traditional asian master. Egos, contradicting the master, hostility towards others. I wonder, whether in this climate in the U.S., if serious study and serious commitment is even available by a legitimate asian-lineage master, amongst the fog of the many student types that pay the monthly fees.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;909700]Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.[/QUOTE]
lol.
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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;909700]Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.[/QUOTE]
I’m speaking of the traditional bona-fide masters who held respect, honor and ethics above all else. So “attacking” in that context would not happen.
wet wonder,
I’ve been doing some reading about the distinctions between a “student” and a “disciple.” And also the distinctions between different types of “disciples.” Is there any occurance in the U.S. of a master adopting a student as an actual disciple, in the traditional meaning of that term? Also, are there masters that decidely don’t adopt disciples?
in all honesty there is nothing really different with open or close door students other than a few things…a commitment, learning extra’s, formalities and to carry on a lineage.
to me a disciple is one who has gained total trust and has proven himself time and time again. if this particular student is ready then they can become part of the family sort to say of one particular lineage or branch.
for your last question it is up to the master. i.e having been a student longer does not qualify them so it is the choice of the last generation holder.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;909700]Disciples are like a group of biting dogs that will attack whoever the teacher gives the order to.[/QUOTE]
cool. Light the insence, put the kettle on, and hand out the lai-see!
I’m gonna get me some disciples!!!
[QUOTE=wetwonder;909705]I’m speaking of the traditional bona-fide masters who held respect, honor and ethics above all else. So “attacking” in that context would not happen.[/QUOTE]
If someone bad mouth about your teacher, your teacher may send you to knock on his door and ask for a friendly match so you can defeat him to shut him up. I’ll not call that “attack” but it’s pretty much the same thing IMO. The nice thing about this is, in the old time no matter who gets hurt in that friendly match, the law will not get involved. In today’s environment, you teacher may get into law suit and that’s why the disciples are no longer be desired in US.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;909716]If someone bad mouth about your teacher, your teacher may send you to knock on his door and ask for a friendly match so you can beat the sh!t of him. I’ll not call that “attack” but it’s pretty much the same thing IMO.[/QUOTE]
A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.
I disagree, I have been told stories of my sifu’s sifu having his students challange other schools students to see how thier skills compare… This was an often thing.
My first teacher sensei heri was a student of victor vega in NYC, his BB test was to walk up to a guy in central park who practiced and taught karate for free in the park for years, and say see that man over there? pointing to Victor… hes my sensei and he wants me to fight you… I dont want to at all but I know how bad he can kick my a$$ and if i dont fight you then I have to fight him so please put your hands up…
Victor vega was a extremly humble man with no ego , but he taught the old japanese way. hard knocks
[QUOTE=wetwonder;909718]A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.[/QUOTE]
I do wish the CMA world is as peaceful as you have described.
I think we tend to forget sometimes that Masters are human beings too.
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;909730]I think we tend to forget sometimes that Masters are human beings too.[/QUOTE]
Those masters that exist in the movies “Karate kid”, “Star War”, or “Kung Fu” TV show may not exist in the real world. In the real world those masters do go to bathroom as everybody else does.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;909726]I do wish the CMA world is as peaceful as you have described.[/QUOTE]
It tends to be that way for those who committ to it. For folks that don’t, I suppose it tends the other way.
wetwonder,
I understand your point.. but the basic reality is MA’s is first martial then art… humbleness comes with wisdom. there will always be alot of “proving” going on.. especially in the olden days..
one must test his teachers abilites before one commits to that teacher for life. If I never saw my teacher fight or crossed hands with him how do I know his is good?. surely not by his humbleness or selfless ego.. while these are sought after traits or by products of confidence in ones self.. they cannot take the place of realism
[QUOTE=wetwonder;909718]A master worth learning under would be too humble/ego-less to do that.[/QUOTE]
YOu have yet to meet a lot of the different types of sifu who are out there. 
There is no such thing as “ego-less”…unless you are a bhodisattva, and take it from me that you would be very hard pressed to find a sifu who is that.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;909744]There is no such thing as “ego-less”[/QUOTE]
I agree! The word “ego-less” contradicts to our CMA training goal. The reason that we train because we want to be able to do “something” better than others. That kind “ego” will give us the motivation to continue our training. In Chinese, that’s called (Ba Qi - rule by force). Without it, it’s very difficult to be good in anything in our life.
For example, you want your girlfriend to be pretty so when you take her out, you will be proud. No matter you like it or not, that’s “ego”.
youknowwho,
just a thought.. you are misusing the word Baqi…