Master/Disciple System and equality

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Wang Xiang Zhai was oposed to this system and felt that training was free to all who had the preserverance to follow his (or whoever’s) training.
In our society equality is looked upon as important but usually in a class situation one must at sometime trust what the teacher is teaching you is right/usefull /productive.For this he /she demands respect and almost blind obidence.(I guess this is why some do not like you cross training)
The modern student must not only part with time, hard earned cash and be often talked down too.

How do some of you Instructors deal with the above topics?

Reason:
Recently in Sydney while talking to an instructor (who I know)who swore at a student for listening to our conversation.
Another Instuctor reguraly makes derogative statments about the stardard of other teachers students abilities without crossing hands with them.
Sorry gone of the orginal topic, if you get the idea please post a few comments

2

Interesting topic, As a shrfu I can add a little words that may help make light of this situation.

As a teacher you should be bound to the idea that you are teaching your students the real deal. As students you must trust that they are doing just that. Some times bad teachers make good teachers look bad, but when you are in school you automatically trust that your math teacher is helping you learn about numbers, so in MA you should trust that they are doing the same.

There must be respect in class for not only your teacher but for senoir students. You dont have to like them but you should respect them not only for their personal attributes but for the knowledge they have obtained. Blind obidence? Not in todays world, when you pay money you expect a service, I somtimes ask my students to perform little chors around the school and then usually teach them a little extra but never tell them what to do or how to do it, and never expect that they will. that would be takeing advantage of them.

Talked down to ? never, I have diciplined them when they have done something bad or wrong, the same as I would my children for in a sense they are but I do it with a lecture or explain why I am feeling like they need talked to but in the end they repect you for it. No one should be talked down to not your student, employee, freind or anyone else that you care about.

Last but not least profanity has no place in the class before during or after. There are certain rules that must apply simply out of respect for the kwoon. We have them posted on a sign when you enter and are a must to be obeyed.

I had a freind take a private class with me and at the end I said OK it’s bow out time… he said I cant do that… I said why He said your my buddy not my god why do I have to bow to you? I explained that he was not bowing to me personally but to my sharing of knowledge that was shared to me by my shrfu and his shfru and so on… so you see some people dont understand the amount of respect needed to not only teach but to learn… your freind E.D

3

a good post E.D.
As a student, i can see what you mean. I guess i’m lucky that i have a good Sifu :slight_smile:

david

4

I agree nice post ED you corvered all the topic’s.
Myself I was totally surprised when this gent went off the way he did,While I know the man,I guess I don’t know him that well.He has definatly changed since taking on the mantal of instructor.
What this constantly confirms to me just how important the Instructor can be,I hope that many understand what sort of responsiblity they are taking on.
Without a doubt somtimes cultural preceptions can make for misunderstandings but this in my opinion is something that both parties must understand then rectify.
The second instructor uses another fail safe,by never directly blaming other teachers for there so called inferior students,rather he simply says the students do not train hard enough to produce results.If you are not improving its because you don’t work hard enough,he is not to blame.
While I am sure this can contain an element of truth,it seems overkill when he is still happily acepting there cash.
Anyway thanks for listening to my ramble
Any other instructors with any comments

5

HHmm

A teacher who slates another teacher without prior knowledge of his/her capability is usually a teacher worth ignoring, it basically shows poor character and possibly sour grapes syndrome. A teacher that swears at a student for something trivial as that is a little unbalanced in my opinion. I don’t see it a sign of a disciplined teacher but of a teacher with ego problems and who thinks that there are of high character.
I could be very wrong but experience has hsown me that genuine teachers can be very disciplined yet very careful on how they treat and eductae their students.

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Great post E.D, a shame so many don’t aprecaite the knowledge being shared. The respect comes naturally I think, seeing someone with such a skilled obviously required a lot of discipline and hard work. Some just don’t get it.

A note on teacher telling a student to mind his/her business though. I can agree with this.

Sometimes my sifu will show us soemthing and we go to work on it with a partner, switching up along the way.

He may inerupt a few seniors or desciples to fine tune their technique. This is not the time for juniors to stop what they are doing and ease drop. Not because they will get some “secret”, but because its none of their business: we have their own basics to be working on.

When sifu get’s to us, he’ll fine tune us. But trying to uderstand the finer points of what they are doing, when the basics are still wrong, its wasting time that could be used training. A lot of people just like to use any distraction as a break. Why?

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"He may inerupt a few seniors or desciples to fine tune their technique. This is not the time for juniors to stop what they are doing and ease drop. Not because they will get some “secret”, but because its none of their business: we have their own basics to be working on. "

I do not belive that his is true. We all have a only a certain amount of time to spend with our teachers, and observing him/her as much as possible is neccessary inorder to abosorb as much as we can. Perhaps a senior brother will ask a question we have not thought of but is extremely helpful to us? Should we ignore this possibility and “mind our own business”. I think not, it serves no purpose except to re-enforce the traditional command structure.

Perhaps you will overhear something that make no real sense to you, but later in meditation or training you will recall this event and have a revelation.

Master move, masters quit, masters die, masters get sick, masters get bored.

We must take as much as we can now. I believe this is a show of respect, to be eager to learn.

8

Arrrgghhhhhhhh…that thread brings bad memories for me…not badn actually, rather upsetting ones…
You see, I’m a nice and funny guy…I take training seriously but I do not get overserious to the point it’s silly…but recently I had to switch to butt kicking mode…I was asked to teach the beginning students the first part of our first form…I come to them, I go “we’ll learn until this movement”…one stops and tell me “can’t we go further, we already know this part”. I say that 1) I was asked to teach THIS part and 2) it’s gong fu, you’d better acknowledge that it’s necessary to work especially what you think you know.
it got me quite annoyed at first but I proceeded with a smile…I teach them the moves…they do it bad (which gets me a little more annoyed at mister “I know that part already”), no waist, no root, no power, sure they know approximatively what movement comes after the other, but it’s just plain bad…I show them at lenght, explain them the hows and whys of it, take my time…some start ppfffffffing when I make them repeat the movement for the 10th time…I’m starting to boil inside, but I still haven’t lost my smile. Eventually I make them hold the stance and tell them “I want to see waist, turn it more…I want to see back leg, straighten it”…some visibly have a hard time, but at least they try…then I look at mister “I know that part” and some others and it seems they don’t even try…I tell them again “waist facing front, back leg straight, come on”…they don’t budge…
And I blow…I’m starting to yell “****** I’m fed up, you tell me you know the part, we repeat it over and over and no one seems to make efforts…you’re al doing shi@t and you think you know have the form?? Learning the movements is something ANYONE can do, but doing it right is why we are here…your legs hurt?? so what, it’s gong fu, if you stop each time it hurts it’ll always hurt…you can’t do it?? well if you never force yourself it won’t ever come…that’s gong fu you’re here to learn, if you just wanna get in shape do some aerobics, and if you don’t want to listen to what I ask I’d rather not teach you”…my sifu comes up with a smile, and tells them about me “he’s a very nice guy, but it shouldn’t make you forget why you’re here…you have to understand that when I ask him to teach you something, he becomes your sifu, and you have to listen and obey him like he were me”…then he tells that he’ll continue and that I can go practice my own form and that I’m doing the right thing. I hate these beginners with attitude who think they got it because they can move their legs and arms approximatively like what they see…then they give me attitude?? ****, after almost 5 years of training I still consider myself a perfect beginner and these guys tell me “we know that part” because they practiced it five times??
Arrrgghhhh, it gets me all upset when I think about it, I hate doing that, I don’t care if I sounded like a jerk to them, they are here to learn and try their best, like we are all here for no matter how much time we practiced…if they’re not happy with it, they can just find some other school where after the slightest effort the guy will tell them “great” even when they suck…
f@cking slackers…
:mad:

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Shaolinboxer, believe me, no one apreciates time with their master more than me … and I get plenty of it.

Classes are small and my sifu teaches the entire class – he never leaves it to a senior unless away, which has happened once in a full year.

With that said, we are all at different levels. The main subject will be taught, explained and shown to the entire class. Then we pare up in a line and get to work.

What sifu is telling a guy 5 people down from me is there business. Maybe he’s a senior but his elbow is up, and he’;s reminding him to keep it down. Not my business.

Is my elbow down? Good. Let me make sure I keep it down and get as many reps as possible. He’ll be up towards me soon, so let me keep working it. Believe me, he’ll find something to correct.

We know when its time to stop and pay attention, because class will clear out and make room when sifu starts to demoinstrate, show the idea in use, things to look for, things to keep in mind, and then back to work.

Of coarse, I’m like a spunge and try to take everything in. But I heard him mention this once, and he’s right, corrections made to someone else down the line is their business, I should keep training unless there is a break in the action directed for the entire class.

I think many want to run before they can crawl. If I can barely get out of my crib, what good is listening in on sprinting advice? Its none of my business.

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crimson please read

Crimson WOW do you feel better now , How long have you been carrying around that built up hostility ? You must know that your teacher told you to teach the other others students a certain move for not just thier benifietsand learning but for yours…Think about that for a minute…

I once had a young student from russia who was extremly shy and would never look in your eyes when talking and would talk very soft and low due to his insecurites… I asked him to read a chinese story outloud to the class while I went next door to the hardware store to get a new flouresent bulb. he said ummm sifu I cant do this I said what? he said read this in front of the class, I said sure you can just read it i will be right back and finish where you left off, go start to read I am leaving. well as you could imagine he was petrified and spoke very quietly then someone speak up dimitry and he cleared his throat and spoke up. many months later he is the class valadictorian and one of my assisitant
instructors. He even approaches new students that walk into the kwoon to answer questions… so the morale of the story is sifu’s are smarter than you think and just becuse they tell you to help other students they may be trying to help you… your freind E.D

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I do not beleive in cultish behavior as a rule.

However, I do know from experience that the early stages of training requires the student to have implicit trust in thier teacher, and the teacher must be a good example as a human being as well as a martial artist. This is essential as we are engaged in an egomania inducing activity that at it’s core is about hurting others. In order to prevent creating monsters, you must set certain boundaries.

Also - there is a great deal in training that is experiential. You can talk about it, but until you experience it, you will not understand it. As such there are ‘secrets’ in my school, but they are not ‘secret’, the student just may not be ready yet for that stage, and experience has shown that teaching in a logical progression is best. Some students learn better if you hold back,. others if you show them where it is going. Each situation is different.

I do beleive that ‘the nail that sticks up gets hammered down’ - certainly in the early phases as ego does get in the way of learning and group harmony. But as a side note, it is not about teacher domination - if the teacher ‘hammers’ a student just to reinforce dominance, they are not getting it.

Generally, in my school the people that make are the ones who are dedicated. The only additional requirement I have is that they have compassionate to all, and be good people. I will not teach people who appear to be cruel, overly selfish, full of themselves or in any way likely to be a pain - unless I see in them a kernal of good that can be ‘beaten’ out.

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EF - Yes, I see what you are saying.

It is also good practice to know when to limit your intake. We must decide on our own just how much we can absorb, and be honest with ourselves.

I see you begun to build a web site. I look forward to seeing more :).

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Earth Dragon thanks for caring, but really it didn’t prevent me from sleeping heheheheh…I have to admit I do not really see the point of your comment…sure, my sifu is there to help me, he’s alway been, and I do not mind when he wants me to perform the basic form in front of him even if I’m learning more advanced one because I know that you can always go deeper in deeper even in the simple forms…as I said in my post "like we are all here for (learning and trying our best) no matter how much time we practiced…it’s not a matter of hostility, but of disrespect of the art that I’m ****ed about: I’m just ****ed off at these slackers coming to gong fu like they come to, say tennis, or cardio class…the main problem is that people pay and by paying they think they are entitled to be taught what they want…they are not…they will be taught if they deserve it, period…and I hate it when they give me that attitude and do not work properly because they are convinced they know the form eventhough they practice like turds. I’m sorry but even when I do my first form I learnt years ago, I still search for deeper execution and find some mistakes that I could erase…and these guys think they do not need to work because they can move their limbs “sort of” like in the form?? I cannot stand such disrespect for the art, to me even if you pay and can freely join a class, gong fu is still not a mass product but a priviledge…I’m not proselytic, that’s the way I have been taught: either you respect and deserve the art and teachings, either you just walk out the door…and it’s not because I smile or joke around that I do not take this seriously. I have great times teaching more advanced beginners because these guys already passed some test and provd that they are honest,dedicated, and here to learn, when teaching these guys I learn as they learn. But I’m losing my time with some of these self-sufficient slackers, do not tell me that “yeah, but you’ll still gain from the teaching experience” nope, sorry, I will gain much more from teaching to dedicated beginners, we will mutually gain from that, but I can’t fill someone’s cup if they haven’t emptied it first, right??
I’m just ****ed because it’s this kind of lazy mentality that is killing the real art and make modern martial arts scorn us…

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Crimson, one thing you learn from teaching new and beginner students is patience, which is something we can all improve upon, yourself included.

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Sorry CP "pay the money then taught if they deserve it period."This is just way out there for me.Who decides whether they deserve it.Maybe you should stop charging money and go back to Teacher disciple method then only the fully comitted would come to you because of your superior fighting ability and form work right?
Where does human rights fit in?:wink: Do you treat your missus like that?:stuck_out_tongue:
Considering that some of you make (not all and in all truth I respect the instuctors that train and teach full time)tax free dollars often train in parks (free venue) supply no mitts/weapons and still charge membership fees and ongoing fees I would say the least the teacher can do is make an effort to help people who aren’t as quick as others.Please remeber that they have probaly worked hard for there cash too.
While I am sure that it is there decison to financially surport your school(because thats what it is right,if you didn’t need the money why charge for teaching) and they can go if they don’t like it,please remember that people react in different ways coming from differeing perceptions.If you put out arrogance maybe they defend with arrogance.Maybe they have there mind on other things.
Tell me that there is no variatons of stardard amongst your seniors.Tell me that all meet your high level of approval in every part of there lives.
tripy bro

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Crimson Phoenix,
I think that what they meant is that your teacher wanted you to teach them because he felt there was something you could learn from the experience.

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Re: Master/Disciple System and equality

Hi.

The modern student must not only part with time, hard earned cash and be often talked down too.

This is a western concept and feeling.
All my Instructors up to now when they accepted a Student they took the responsilbity of making them into a good MA. If a Student didn’t become good, it was they that failed.
So a lot of Instructors will be tough on their Students to fulfill that commitment.

My Teachers phsyically manhandle me into correct postures, and they are less than gentle. They are simply making a strong point.

How do some of you Instructors deal with the above topics?

If we are told to perform a Form we are supposed to do nothing else.
If Sifu wants to make a point for the whole classe she will gather everybody together. But if we take a break we are actually supposed to observe the rest of the Class and learn from it.

Recently in Sydney while talking to an instructor (who I know)who swore at a student for listening to our conversation.
Need more info on the WHOLE situation to make yp my mind. But profanity should never be used in a MA School.

Another Instuctor reguraly makes derogative statments about the stardard of other teachers students abilities without crossing hands with them.

Nuff, said.

18

Traditional Chinese martial arts was never met to be mass produced and mass distributed. Training that soldiers received was far less than that of the disciples. Often only one disciple was chosen to receive the entire system.

2oth century, guns, ahhhh yes health shifting uses and needs.

Look at taijiquan and weep. That’s reality of traditional martial arts and its future.

What do you think can be done to preserve traditional martial arts?

Not everyone can or should receive complete instruction in a system, should they? Or does money buy anything and everything?

How is telling a student if you are hardworking, commited, and meet my assessment, you will receive the system? Any different from discipleship? If not, ask for a legal binding contract specificying what, how and when you will receive your material.

Sleight of hand! discipleship comes in many forms, even those claiming they teach openly and freely. The master still makes the decision how much you get regardless of money.

19

Crimson

you said
Earth Dragon thanks for caring, but really it didn’t prevent me from sleeping heheheheh…I have to admit I do not really see the point of your comment…

Really thats to bad… you should re-read my post, nexsus and sam wiley’s again and then re-read your post’s from someone else’s eyes. you will then understand… “young grasshopper”

Think of something in kung fu that you just hate practicing…

I’lll bet that is exactly what you need to improve right?

I have students that hate horse stance with a passion, guess what they never do on thier own? guess what needs work?

20

My teacher asks senior students to teach the younger ones at the end of the class…sometimes he appoints peeps, sometimes he asks for voluntary…that day my knee was bugging me and I didn’t feel like straining it more with the form I’m currently practicing, so I volunteered to teach them…

Since I’m considered a senior student, I am sometimes asked like other seniors to teach the beginners, it’s as simple as that…if my teacher feels there are things I have to learn, then he teaches them to me himself because he considers that’s why he is here for.

Now I’m returning you the gentle comment of “if you don’t understand my post, that’s sad” because you’re missing a key point about martial spirit and the respect due to gong fu. I pay for class, but I do not consider that makes me entitled to receive teaching, I believe you have to bow before teaching and humble yourself like you would in front of a king.

Ka, whatever, I am what my senior student who taught me made me, I share these criterions with them as they taught me them. And the thing is with these seniors is that they are way less gentle than me…I hate being over serious and act military, but it would seem that it might be the only thing these people understand…you pull the ass, it refuses to follow…you are gentle, then less and less gentle, you pull you pull it still won’t go…will you lose your time for ever? Or decide to leave the ass where it is? Well these peeps do not realize that by behaving like this they are gradually making the seniors indifferent towards them…will you ever lose time with someone who, when you tell him “put your back foot 45 degrees at least to turn your waist front”, looks at you blankly, obviously not even trying to turn his foot, and giving you a unhappy face because you’re asking him something that makes his leg uncomfortable?? Well, you might lose your time once, twice, but not three times: there are people out there who are here to learn from your teaching the same way I’m here to learn from the teaching experience, and these people deserve the time much more, these people, by trying their best, EARN the teaching. And when they do earn it, there’s no holding back, you give them all you have.

Nexus, indeed patience is something definitely worth improving, and we all need to during all our life, but I’m sorry, you all go on rambling about disrespect and I consider it’s disrespect when I ask a student gently to try his best and use his waist or correct his foot’s position, and then he replies me with a “ppffffffff” and blatantly does not even try doing it. We have great beginners, they try hard, they do not always succeed and that’s alright because trying one’s best is what I’m looking for…but there are these two or three hardheads who think they know it all, refuse to eat bitter, and are expecting me to say “very good” and teach them the rest when they’re not even doing the beginning right?? And they have the guts to pppppppfffffffff at me?? Woul you “pppfffffffff” at your sifu? I guess not…and if you did, I hope he’d bi@tch-slap you out of the school quick.

I do not need moral lessons, keep them for yourselves if you’re enlightened half as you think, I’m here to learn and preserve gong fu, not pat people in the back when there’s no reason (and especially NOT when they would instead deserve to get their asses kicked).

Earth Dragon, by the way, it just occured to me that my “it didn’t prevent me from sleeping” comment could sound like irony towards you…forgive me, I didn’t mean that in such words, actually, I was meaning that “this night’s bad teaching experience didn’t prevent me from sleeping”, and your comment was taken as a friendly advice…thanks anyway for replying to me in a gentle way even though you might have taken my own post as an attack towards you…now to your recent post…good example, of course there are some stuffs I hate practicing, like anyone…let’s say…panther walk for example…but the difference in spirit is that if sifu says “everyone panther walks” I won’t go “oohh no, that sucks, pppffffffffff”, I’ll just shut up, tell myself that every work is a benefit and then do it…it hurts, alright, but I’ll try my best.
My whole point is that there are some people out that that do not even TRY…then you tell them to hold a stance and they go “I can’t, it’s too hard”…well of course you can’t, you never try…would your horse stance improve if you got back up the very second it becomes uncomfortable? Of course not, well the sad thing is that lots and lots of peeps out there think they can learn and practice gong fu without mental or physical pain.
It just can’t be done.

On a side note, I hate having to act all serious and military, it’s detestable…back in the days in my school the beginners knew that eventhough the atmosphere was relaxed and cheerful, we were all here for one thing: gong fu. We’d say “horse stance”, and they’d try their best…if their legs couln’t take it, they’d go up with pain on their faces, but nevertheless they’d go back down again as soon as possible, in 4 words: THEY TRIED THEIR BEST.
Now we got a new generation of peeps who think they can learn gong fu like in the matrix…you can’t just buy a gong fu software, you’ll have to go through the muscle-aching illusion-shattering maybe-bleeding surely-sweating path…and then I sometimes see such 1-day wonders teach others in parks? That’s nauseous, do not even wonder why the arts are being washed down.

And here comes RAF’s comment on which I couldn’t agree more