Secrecy and Discipleship in America

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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In my 20+ years of training Praying Mantis Kung Fu nothing has been a greater source of frustration than secrecy.

Secrecy, and discipleship, to which it is closly linked, were more relevant in the old days, when money wasn’t as much of a factor.

Today, kung fu masters move into the United States eager to “spread their knowledge of martial arts.” In English this usually translates seek recognition and financial gain.

This is fine…after all America is the land of opportunity.

The problem arises when even after becoming a disciple, there is no guarantee a student will learn what initially led him to the style.

If the “master” does not feel a student is subservient enough, feels intimidated by his skill, or suddenly feels he is not making enough money, the "master can deny that the student ever trained with him.

This means a student can spend thousands of dollars, and countless hours learning a system only to find himself on the outside looking in.

A “master” may even go to great lengths to discredit a student in a community of like minded “masters” with similar agendas.

The American psyche is filled with brazen images young Caine sitting outside the Shaolin temple showing his dedication to learn, and upon acceptance, irrevocable respect for his master.

I guess they most have deleted the scene where Caine, standing in a horse stance, paying $100 per hour for private instruction, pulls out a wad of green backs from his wallet to hand over to his teacher.

The best kept secret in Praying Mantis Kung Fu…If your master isn’t teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

If he insists on traditional training, tell him you want to pay traditional fees.

Dr. George Lisjak

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Great post!

I couldn’t agree with you more. You spelled out my thoughts completely..

I had the same experiance with my monk teachers. That might be why I had 3 over the last 7 years! The best part is you leave thinking “it must be me”. Meanwhile it’s them!

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Great post!

My teacher has told me many times that the secrecy means power. People love to have that control and power over another human.

There have been certain things that I have wanted to learn and my teacher has told me no. Not because of money but because I had not laid down the foundation work needed to do what I asked. I am sure when I do the training that needs to be done I will get what I am ready for when I ask.

I also find it funny how the chinese reading and speaking non chinese hold it over peoples head for power. Just because they can read it they have something over you.

Thank God Mr. 108 is not like this. He translates everything I ask, even the stupid stuff :slight_smile: Mr. Brazier is very helpfull also.

We cant just say the master who came from China is doing this. The Americans have picked up on it and perfected it.

I feel that the whole kung fu “family” thing is set up for control. You cant go against the “family”, especialy not your “father”. There are organizations out there other than TCMA using the “family” concept.

I think that most of the secrets of a good style are taught within the first year or so. Most just do not realize it. They are to busy looking for the silver bullet.

Good post. It seems you have had the same experience as many others. We can just let the bad experiences make us stronger.

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Your teacher values the quality of your education over his own pocketbook.

More than likely, your teacher will have been observing you closely, and you will not even have to ask.

There is A LOT of truth to that idea. The real secret is that THERE IS NO SECRET.

Those that have little knowledge or are mainly interested in financial gain, hide behind secrecy. They use tradition as their excuse, and give tradition a bad name.

A good traditional teacher practically force feeds the information to his student. As the student improves his understanding, the teacher pushes him even more. Unfortunately, the student can only understand so much at one time. And some, never do understand. Some of the ones that don’t understand, will fault secrecy and tradition out of sour grapes.

One of the best things to hear from a student is, “You showed me this 2 years ago, and I thought I knew it. Now I really understand.” An even better thing is when the student says, “I thought I knew the first time, then I thought I REALLY understood the second time, but now I see there’s even more to it!” At some point, he will learn that he never stops learning :slight_smile:

N.

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Some very good teachers make this arrangement. The only payment they request is the student’s blood and sweat.

N.

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I agree with everything that’s been said but what I want top know is Where are the teachers that accept hard work for payment?

All I ever find are the guys that want a lot of money.

I think they’re all just looking to get rich.

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There are some in the San Francisco area.

N.

btw, your Infinite Monkey Boxing is #1 :wink:

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Ou Ji

I think that there should be a balance. If you find a guy who doesnt require payment in money they obviously have another job or are indepently wealthy.

I teach full time and do not have another job. I have to pay rent, electric, water and everything else that goes along with running a school. I pay for those expensive mats that my students fall on during san shou.

I bought the extras sticks and staffs that my kids practice with because their parents cannot afford one. After they drop them off in their $35,000 SUV.

The ones in their 20’s use my san shou gear because they cant afford it. Just before they walk out of the school in the $50 tennis shoes and listen to one of their 75 $20 CD’s on their way to buy a bag of dope or drink all night.

I dont make people sign contracts. When they come 3 months without paying then just stop all together without paying what they owe, I picked up the tab.

I dont raise rates with existing students. The kid who still pays $40 a month just drops in and out every soccer season with out even a word. Then he just shows up and may pay the $40 after he has been back a month or so.

I do not do the colored belt sysem. So with my cheap tuition and minus the “belt testing fees” My students who pay the higher rate still pay $40 less a month than the students of the local Korean Karate schools.

I dedicate my whole day to training and my students are able to recieve very high level training and information because of my hard work. I have worked full time and taught part time. I know for a fact that I can give a much better education than I did when I was working full time and teaching part time. I am not one of the full time guys who lay around in their office talking philosophy (BSing on the phone) and let my students do all of the teaching. I teach the majority of my classes.

I think it is very hard to find an honest Teacher who has his students best interest at heart. Or who actually trains. Many are lazy.

I think it is just as if not harder to find a good student. I have come to the conclusion I will probably not be able to find a student who can absorb the amount of information I have to offer. Whether it is free or not.

The funny thing is that is what my teacher probably thinks the same of me :slight_smile:

Not directed at you, just saw my chance to blow off some steam.

Thanks

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…one last thing, why am I ALWAYS THE LAST PERSON THEY PAY EVERY MONTH?

they didnt have a problem paying the guy for the tattoo or the guy selling them the tennis shoes.

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Mantid1 is hardcore, and he has a nice setup.

N.

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Thanks N

I just try to live up to my teachers example. I dont think I can come close.

Ill have alot of fun trying :slight_smile:

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Americanmantis,
Great post , very well put . It does make one think . :slight_smile:

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Hi George,

Good to see you back. :slight_smile: Hope all is well with you.

Warm regards

Robert

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****, mantid1, sounds like we have the same students.

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OSO

WHAT!!! I cant believe it!!! Now they are training behind my back with you.

I knew it!!

I wondered why their kung fu was improving so much. :slight_smile:

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RAOFLMAO…yea, right. :wink:

I had a ‘come to jesus’ meeting last month…might lose one or two but they are people who are consistantly late (as much as 15-20 days) with monthly tuition…hate to lose anyone but, you know, I just signed another annual lease…and I’ve been sweating the 1st for 12 months now and it’s making me insane…not going to do it anymore.

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have read this same topic over theyears on many forums.

So what are these secrets?

Its the information age, its out there if you look.

don’t look down on these non chinese who can read and speak. Hey I’m one of them and it was hard work. I used to be the one pestering the my sifu, what does this mean etc. and it was quite annoying as I am feeling now with all the request from my training brothers to give them translastions.

hey just buckle down and if its important to you then pick up the dictionary.

mantid1
you doing a great service by providing training for thefinancially challenged. This is rare even in the “old days” all the famous teachers taught for money or were family members. Alot worked in the teachers business for no pay in exchange for lessons. I’ve got a few students who do my mowing and landscapping in exchange for lessons. Value in value out.

Also it has to do with how much you put in the “lineage holder/member” topic. It doesn’t affect a person’s skills. I know this up front. been thrown out/“suspended” from my teacher’s school many times. Now he’s still my sifu but I don’t live off his name. I have my own school that teaches my method. I give face to all my sifu’s . Lineage holder is a very stressful position. You can have it.

Making money, how about making a living. If I wanted to be poor then i’d not work. Its great to get paid doing something you enjoy.

finding a teacher is onething but finding a deserving student is another.

peace.

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Sometime those so called “secrecy” will only have value if you figure it out all by yourself. The teacher could tell you all the secret on the 1st day but it could be just like the breeze that passing through your face and you could forget everything next day.

For example, a teacher could say, “In order to make this move work, you need to do this and that”. Five years passed because you are lazy and not willing to spend enough time and effort, your moves are still not effective. Now you may blame your teacher that there must be something that he had not told you and you felt that you have be cheated and wasted your money.

I don’t know any place in US that accept hard work for your medical or lawyer bill. Never heard anybody who can “get rich” by teaching CMA.

Do you know what “tradition fees” is? You will be your teacher’s slave for the rest of your life and your full monthy pay check will go directly into your teacher’s pocket.

Do you still want to pay the “tradition fees”? I know I won’t.

If you can find a student like that then I believe you will even pay him to learn from you. For the others, just get as much as money out of their pocket as you can. Art has no value afterward.

How much money does it worthy to have killing ability?

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youknowwho

You know What? I think you are right. I probably would pay a student to learn from me if they were dedicated to learning the material and becoming a better person. Only if I thoght they would treat me as a human being after it was all over. That even seems to be to much to expect anymore.

I probably will end up paying someone to learn everthing. When my kids turn 16 and need money to pay for insurance, cars, college…etc. Lets just hope they have the fire. Times like this I wish my kung fu brothers were closer to help fan the flames in them.

Have a good day.

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YouKnowWho, Mantid1,

It is good to see people that understand this.

N.