You’re right, the clip does not show Chi Sao exercises, but Gwoh Sao. The article posted, however, talks about Chi Sao.
Michael (the man in the clip training with his student) stated this pretty clearly a page back.
Again, the clip shows only one aspect of training.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1091071]Again, a good basic example of looksau/lapsau rather than chisau, in my misinformed opinion![/QUOTE]
Now everyone finally starts to repeat what I was saying at the beginning of this thread.
Funny that 
FWIW The clip isn’t gwoh (gor) sau either.
Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.
So if your understanding of gwoh sau is “free attack chi sao exercise”, I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a “free attack laap sau exercise,” whatever that might be called in Cantonese…
The important point is that it shows, in my opinion, expert use of distance, timing, angling, footwork and control. Control in not blasting the head off of the student (it is, after all, training and not a fight) and control in the wider Wing Chun sense of attacking while reducing the chance of counter attack by the opponent.
The fact that Kai, the student, appears as if he has “no upper gate” is testimony to the skill of the teacher. But, of course, these are things that have to be experienced first hand, so I totally understand the critique.
More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091709]Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.
So if your understanding of gwoh sau is “free attack chi sao exercise”, I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a “free attack laap sau exercise,” whatever that might be called in Cantonese…
The important point is that it shows, in my opinion, expert use of distance, timing, angling, footwork and control. Control in not blasting the head off of the student (it is, after all, training and not a fight) and control in the wider Wing Chun sense of attacking while reducing the chance of counter attack by the opponent.
The fact that Kai, the student, appears as if he has “no upper gate” is testimony to the skill of the teacher. But, of course, these are things that have to be experienced first hand, so I totally understand the critique.
More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.[/QUOTE]
Sean,
The frustration you are feeling, it will only get worse the more you post or frequent this forum,just fair warning man, you seem like a cool dude:)
In this place it doesn’t matter if one states superiority or not, they all assume it anyways, since anything of quality is always percieved as a threat. The follies of becoming identified with what one does.
What I see is people getting frustrated with the constant WSL/PB advertising/praise, and therefore the attacks come. I have to admit after awhile it does get old, but good stuff is good stuff, get over it, if your sick of it don’t read the thread…
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091709]Oh, man. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me.
In the beginning of the clip they use chi sao as a starting point and then laap sau.
So if your understanding of gwoh sau is “free attack chi sao exercise”, I guess for the most part of the clip they are actually doing a “free attack laap sau exercise,” whatever that might be called in Cantonese…[/QUOTE]
Kind of, yes. But my understanding of Gorsau is that it is FIGHTING. All ranges, anything goes (unless there’s a gentlemans agreement in there somewhere!)
What you refer to as ‘free attack’ I would put into the Sansau category (meaning ‘loose hands’) which also generally means an exchange of ideas similar to one-two step sparring that is NOT going to hurt anyone. Gorsau is a different animal altogether.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091709]More importantly, the guys in the clip have never claimed to be better than anyone else.[/QUOTE]
No, they don’t. But they guys in the clip didn’t post the clip did they? I don’t even know if they have ever contributed to the forum??
And FWIW I don’t criticize to come across as a ‘know-it-all’ a$$hole, that’s just how some people take my posts and it’s their problem. I am by far an expert on Wing Chun. I just have a different insight to most as I learnt from literature, not from memorizing forms and drills. I’m not saying one is better than the other either as they are BOTH required imho.
I can not stand to see the actual ‘language’ of our art ‘changed’ to suit whatever you want it to be. The language, from my very personal experience, is totally key to everything we do and the quicker people realize this the better our system will adapt and change.
Know what the differences are bewteen chi, look, san, gor etc because if you don’t then you are just selling your own ideas. That’s not Wing Chun imho, that’s more akin to JKD or MMA.
Whatever rocks your boat! 
@sihing
Thanks, man, and I hear you.
@LoneTiger
Ok, fair enough. If that is your definition of Gorsau I won’t argue with you.
We definitely need a common vocabulary in order to have fruitful discussion.
Here is an interesting thread from another forum, that might provide some insight:
http://wongshunleung.takeforum.com/2008/02/03/whats-gwoh-sau/
If I’m not mistaken, our own Graham H also contributed to the discussion.
Maybe part of the problem is that we are dealing with terminology in a language that very few of us here speak or understand. Perhaps it would be better to describe what we mean/see in an analytical way. That way we can avoid the danger of mystification.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091722]@LoneTiger
Ok, fair enough. If that is your definition of Gorsau I won’t argue with you.
We definitely need a common vocabulary in order to have fruitful discussion.[/QUOTE]
And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn’t that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn’t teach me if I didn’t put in the effort to learn his language myself.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091722]Here is an interesting thread from another forum, that might provide some insight:
http://wongshunleung.takeforum.com/2008/02/03/whats-gwoh-sau/[/QUOTE]
I liked the discussion, but again there are differences to how I studied interactive training. Same direct translation, Gorsau meaning ‘cross hands’, which is our Wing Chun slang for FIGHTING! And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!
The only different thing I would say is that Gorsau isn’t attached to Chisau training, it is independent sparring (of sorts) which can start by crossing hands (right to right or left to left) Naturally, two WCK guys sparring in close range tend to also fall into set drills and rotations, but these should be avoided during fighting.
If there is a stage by stage approach like the other forum suggested I would recommend this order:
Ultimately, they can be picked up and trained at anytime you please really, and learnt in the same manner. Some people like to fight first and think later! 
Some schools only teach one of the above, some teach a few but not many teach ALL separately, but as I have also said many times before, I see people doing these drills within what they call their Chisau, maybe without even knowing (or wanting to know!) the differences and specialities of each method.
The days are passed us when everything we do in an interaction is called Chisau because that’s just not right and does not make any sense when you know a little of the Chinese language imho.
I await to be heavily attacked over this post :o But attack away with the best Gorsau you have!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1091755]And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn’t that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn’t teach me if I didn’t put in the effort to learn his language myself.
I liked the discussion, but again there are differences to how I studied interactive training. Same direct translation, Gorsau meaning ‘cross hands’, which is our Wing Chun slang for FIGHTING! And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!
The only different thing I would say is that Gorsau isn’t attached to Chisau training, it is independent sparring (of sorts) which can start by crossing hands (right to right or left to left) Naturally, two WCK guys sparring in close range tend to also fall into set drills and rotations, but these should be avoided during fighting.
If there is a stage by stage approach like the other forum suggested I would recommend this order:
Ultimately, they can be picked up and trained at anytime you please really, and learnt in the same manner. Some people like to fight first and think later! Some schools only teach one of the above, some teach a few but not many teach ALL separately, but as I have also said many times before, I see people doing these drills within what they call their Chisau, maybe without even knowing (or wanting to know!) the differences and specialities of each method.
The days are passed us when everything we do in an interaction is called Chisau because that’s just not right and does not make any sense when you know a little of the Chinese language imho.
I await to be heavily attacked over this post :o But attack away with the best Gorsau you have! :D[/QUOTE]
No “Gor Sao” response here as we have different takes on what it is and what it is for…
Even though language has its place in teaching a boxing method, degree of familiarity with foreign terms for drills that you can adequatly described in your own language is not a prerequisite when in comes to understanding.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think that tradition should be preserved, but I also think that people get lost with chicken-shit. A Ving Tsun practitioner should be focused above all on the bottomline: whether what he trains works under stress in an uncontrolled environment, and how efficient it is. It’s really evident when the focus is something else, people start wasting time and the lack of real fighting skill becomes apparent.
When looking at video clips of drills, the question is whether the drill is training specific skills, habits, and attributes relevant to fighting (balance, timing, distance control, punching power, hand-foot coordination, use of full body in delivering the punch, etc.) . Also, a drill will have somebody feeding, and somebody drilling - which is what we see. It is evident that Michael has a superb control over many of the above aspects. How well he transfers them over to a real fight is not shown, and any assumption based off the video remains just an assumption.
Having said that, I like Michael’s vid as I recognize good attributes and skills, and he appears to stick to the bottomline in what he is drilling.
Spencer, you mention having a “different insight” because you learnt from reading literature. Do you have any clips of yourself showing how good this has translated into skills and attributes? Not an attack, just curious. I cannot fathom a craft like Ving Tsun being learnt from (mostly) reading.
so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your
I’m not telling everyone. Just you and your fellow zealot.
You need to get out more
That won’t stop you and your fanboyism from being uninteresting.
And teachers of Wing Chun should know what the slang words mean, or they too have missed the point of Wing Chun!
So, Spence, have you made any inroads into the study of five element theory? Last time we conversed on the subject, you had quite a way to go.
Not saying you personally, but it is possible to talk ignorant rubbish in multiple languages.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1091755]And that is where learning a bit of Cantonese comes in Sean. It isn’t that difficult and most (if not all) the Sifu I know are trying. I consider myself very lucky to have an oldskool teacher that wouldn’t teach me if I didn’t put in the effort to learn his language myself.
[/QUOTE]
How exactly does knowing how to name a certain technic in cantoneese make me a better fighter ?
I can understand the need for a common reference but if a teacher wants me to study a language before teaching me to fight then screw him. plenty of good teachers around
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091662]got a clip :D[/QUOTE]
No, my WCK family doesn’t do clips - tradition of hands on training. However, I did post up a number of clips of people I train with at a different school. Feel free to criticize away…
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1025487&postcount=25
[QUOTE=sihing;1091710]What I see is people getting frustrated with the constant WSL/PB advertising/praise, and therefore the attacks come. I have to admit after awhile it does get old, but good stuff is good stuff, get over it, if your sick of it don’t read the thread…[/QUOTE]
Please feel free to correct me on my comments regarding “the WSL way…” and whether or not all WSL decendents train with push punches and no upper gate like in the clip if I said something that is inaccurate in any way. I mentioned Ernie Barrios as an example of more realistic training, but that’s just my perception. You train with him.
Wayfaring,
What is inaccurate is your assessment of the clip.
They are not “training with no upper gate and push punches”.
Although it may appear that the student in the clip has “no upper gate”, this is definitely not the case. He is being controlled…his structure is being broken down and manipulated by Mr. Kurth, who is, well, **** good at what he does.
Each time Mr. Kurth pushes away his student he is just demonstrating that he was within range to deliver a decisive blow. The rest of the time he is making sure to use only light contact because, as I stated before, it’s not a fight, but training. And, don’t forget, only one aspect of training.
[QUOTE=Sean66;1091921]Wayfaring,
What is inaccurate is your assessment of the clip.
They are not “training with no upper gate and push punches”.
Although it may appear that the student in the clip has “no upper gate”, this is definitely not the case. He is being controlled…his structure is being broken down and manipulated by Mr. Kurth, who is, well, **** good at what he does.
Each time Mr. Kurth pushes away his student he is just demonstrating that he was within range to deliver a decisive blow. The rest of the time he is making sure to use only light contact because, as I stated before, it’s not a fight, but training. And, don’t forget, only one aspect of training.[/QUOTE]
Absolute rubbish.
I can tell from BOTH of their elbow positions that neither has any upper gate or control of space. Not just the student.
But by all means continue on with your fanboi behavior.
It is good to see clips of people practicing wing chun-- but IMHO–the length of this thread seems to be out of proportion to the importance of what is shown in the . clip which shows a little rolling and then one guy essentially pushing the other guy and “hitting” him when the other guy just stands there with his hands down.
joy chaudhuri.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1091916]No, my WCK family doesn’t do clips - tradition of hands on training. However, I did post up a number of clips of people I train with at a different school. Feel free to criticize away…
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1025487&postcount=25[/QUOTE]
so no vt clips …I watch ufc and train some stuff too, not relative to my jong structure questions…whats that ?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1091924]It is good to see clips of people practicing wing chun-- but IMHO–the length of this thread seems to be out of proportion to the importance of what is shown in the . clip which shows a little rolling and then one guy essentially pushing the other guy and “hitting” him when the other guy just stands there with his hands down.
joy chaudhuri.[/QUOTE]
oh Joy, if only you and ‘spider bite’ could feeeeel ! … you like vt, no love it…arent you a little curious how a guy 5ft nothing was hailed as this amazing kung fu fighter…Yip Man. What gave him the ability to seem to be hitting/controlling turned opponents effortlessly like WSL, Philipp, Michael, etc… It ‘looks’ like a guy 6’4 isnt trying to stop being hit…but trust us HE IS !!
the idea is that as the big guy does try to face and stop being hit by facing, Michael is skillfully ‘allowing’ movement to gain the resulting effortless strike line resulting from a mistake.
The centerline sweeping strikes of the system allow this method.
Elbow training means Michaels forearms are his hands as his fists are hitting in cycles, each forearm both a hit and a parry as it slides in…you cant see it, sophisticated simplicity ?
I fight this way and develop this idea too now , so I can SEE it, you cant see the idea being worked…its not fanboing ? I see **** good technique, force generation.
the shoves are to also maintain a mindset to keep the momentum going , flowing forwards ..dominating. Strike , strike, shove…sometimes its just to ensure we can reach with force in each arm to the opponent to simply prove our distance+force=partner flying away…
And or if a guy covers up from hits or pain of a hit and I cant hit him cleanly because he is protecting his head , I shove him as Michael is showing.
This ‘shove’ aka po-pai can also be done recover striking distances too.
As strikers using a specific working distance its our distances we train to maintain, shoving allows our distances and also displacing balance etc…
A skilled user of po-pai simply shoves enough to put a guy right back into full force strike distances.
its not how we punch take that ! shove, and this shove shove ..shove :D:D:D
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1091923]Absolute rubbish.
I can tell from BOTH of their elbow positions that neither has any upper gate or control of space. Not just the student.
But by all means continue on with your fanboi behavior.[/QUOTE]
You cant see so its rubbish… Maybe your seeing how ‘you think’ VT works for YOU ..I have students from other ‘ideas’ who also adopted wide arms , high positions to ‘block’ punches…I now show them another ‘idea’…suddenly their arms and elbows come down and they turn only to ‘try’ and face me now… its nice to know a few here reading will smile knowing what I mean …:D:D
you like vt, no love it…arent you a little curious how a guy 5ft nothing was hailed as this amazing kung fu fighter…Yip Man. What gave him the ability to seem to be hitting/controlling turned opponents effortlessly like WSL, Philipp, Michael, etc… It ‘looks’ like a guy 6’4 isnt trying to stop being hit…but trust us HE IS !! Good grief! Same old same old repetitions. I shortened the verbose post.I do not think that you have a monopoly on being amazed by Ip Man or his style.
Joy Chaudhuri