Another good clip...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

I know both the people in the clip. Michael is my teacher and Kai my Si Hing. Kai, a 6 foot 3 Tuetonic beast, is indeed offering plenty of resistance. He’s trying his ****dest to limit his mistakes and gain the upper hand. But Michael just has too much experience and is able to dominate him easily.

I might add that this kind of pressure is essential to training (but is not the only aspect of training), and is one reason why the student, Kai, has himself developed solid ving tsun skills.

I was just up there in Bielefeld last weekend with a group of students to train with them. Two guys that definitely “walk the walk”, as it were.

22

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091117]what are your thoughts on the article and clip…?[/QUOTE]
The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers “habits” that help your “development”.

The question is “development in what?” More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I’m not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it’s like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn’t put a clip like that up on the internet.

23

Hi all,
well, what a surprise: In a Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao-Clip is shown Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao…
I don’t know what you are argue about.
It’s only one aspect of the training, not more not less.
If you do not understand what it is for, it’s ok.
I am rather interested in what you have to offer for training methods
to develope coordination, balance, distance, timing, strategical aspects and
power.
To say that the punches are only push punches is interesting.
Are you able to see if that punches can hurt or not?
Do you hurt your partners in training to show your punching power?
I don’t think so.
What is about the use of timing and distance?
If you can use it in a very close range, isn’t it more easy to use it
in a longer distance?
However, there are a lot of different ways to develope skills.
Which one is the best-I don’t know and I don’t care.
But the WSL-way is a very practical system to build up a good foundation.
And I choose this way for me. No one forces anyone to follow.
So no reason to get upset.
Regards
Michael

24

Thought ill post this for some reflective thought Discussion even ? Iam Wsl VT but i love what this dudes doing sends goose pimples down my spine:D at the end the day good VT is good VT regardless of Lineage;) I think linked to Jiu Wan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f38ykB5ci8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

25

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1091222]The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers “habits” that help your “development”.

The question is “development in what?” More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I’m not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it’s like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn’t put a clip like that up on the internet.[/QUOTE]

"I’m not sure what that is training " as you said, just about covers your input. You need to have certain ideas given to you to see what is being done , ergo the article.
What would help you understand ? small intro clips of the modular systematic process, defining the redundant aspects of chi-sao to actual fighting ? I’m thinking to do some.

IMHO Michael is showing some great skills. Intuitive movement…I can only hope to achieve this level of skill myself oneday.

26

[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1091311]Thought ill post this for some reflective thought Discussion even ? Iam Wsl VT but i love what this dudes doing sends goose pimples down my spine:D at the end the day good VT is good VT regardless of Lineage;) I think linked to Jiu Wan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f38ykB5ci8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3RdYkY3c_0&feature=fvwrel[/QUOTE]

He moves like the guy in Prodigal son :smiley: but, he over turns losing facing [jiu ying] and is fighting aa guy who stands in one spot and throws punches to the same spot that wont hit him anyway…aka …hand chaser :wink: like fighting the tasmanian devil in bugs bunny cartoons…just step away and let him fight the air :smiley:

in the last clip when he is doing the tan to turn and hit the partners outstretched arms…all the partner has to do is remove his hands as the guy is about to touch them and he will overturn with his own momentum, requiring refacing…or fac sao. anyway thats what I see.
Alignment to strike the center not use arms to chase arms…

great movie action!

27

[QUOTE=Jansingsang;1091120]Your too modest What Everrrr:D Good Artical good entertaining clip Students a plank tho not offering any kind of resistance Only thing missing is the Control aspect Disruption of horse etc as for your Boasting You do that effortlessly and to think your not even aware of that Haha[/QUOTE]

the guy isnt a plank, I have tried to stay facing guys fighting this way, they turn you while they strike, using stance facing striking and simultaneous jutsaos in the recycling strikes, so you dont ‘see’ the force of the ‘plank’ being turned as he is being hit, you just see Michael hitting a guy who cant react fast enough to the refacing, alignment angles as they happen in real time…
In a real engagement the first couple of punches do it, the rest ingrains it into us so we dont think as we do ‘it’ :wink:
Philipp mentioned this ‘no mind vt attack’ ability. Gor sao is creating a scenario where partners can be role playing as attacker and counter attacker. Give and take openings given or taken…all good.

YM had nicknames for his students, one was ‘old scrub brush’ he would boast so much before fighting he would wear you down before you even threw a punch, mind games, like M Ali…Greatest Boaster ever, and he could back it up :smiley:

28

[QUOTE=Sean66;1091196]I know both the people in the clip. Michael is my teacher and Kai my Si Hing. Kai, a 6 foot 3 Tuetonic beast, is indeed offering plenty of resistance. He’s trying his ****dest to limit his mistakes and gain the upper hand. But Michael just has too much experience and is able to dominate him easily.

I might add that this kind of pressure is essential to training (but is not the only aspect of training), and is one reason why the student, Kai, has himself developed solid ving tsun skills.

I was just up there in Bielefeld last weekend with a group of students to train with them. Two guys that definitely “walk the walk”, as it were.[/QUOTE]

I have experienced this domination fighting first hand before I knew my mistakes, then knowing how to fix the errors helped me to just stand my ground :smiley: but not for long :wink:

29

[QUOTE=GlennR;1091138]Yeh, they are all getting psychological treatment for boredom from extended periods of exposure to PB evangelists.

Really, do you listen to yourself?[/QUOTE]

Glenda

If you were to expose yourself to it then maybe you wouldn’t need anymore psycological treatment and therefore stop being such a c"""t!

GH

30

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091345]"I’m not sure what that is training " as you said, just about covers your input.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps it does to someone with a limited capacity for input. Try reading the rest of the paragraph without tuning it out.

You need to have certain ideas given to you to see what is being done , ergo the article.

If a drill is supposed to be training fighting skills, then no, it doesn’t need to be introduced with an article. It should be innately evident to anyone who does a fair amount of fighting training / live sparring. This clip unfortunately probably does need to be introduced by an article to explain why someone would train something that develops skills not useful in fighting.

What would help you understand ? small intro clips of the modular systematic process, defining the redundant aspects of chi-sao to actual fighting ? I’m thinking to do some.

There are no amounts of intro clips that can explain how not having a jong structure to protect incoming blows is a good idea or contains skill.

Likewise there are no amounts of intro clips you can do to explain how push punches will have any effect in a live fighting environment.

But by all means, put your explanations, techniques, compliant demos up on YouTube. They will have plenty of company.

IMHO Michael is showing some great skills. Intuitive movement…I can only hope to achieve this level of skill myself oneday.

Let’s see them against someone who can move and hit with a reasonable amount of skill then.

31

[QUOTE=M.Kurth;1091300]Hi all,
well, what a surprise: In a Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao-Clip is shown Ving Tsun-Gwoh Sao…
I don’t know what you are argue about.
It’s only one aspect of the training, not more not less.
[/quote]
Gwoh Sau simply means “crossing hands”. Which could carry the meaning of anything from advanced jump rope techniques to sparring. Some train more effective methods of sparring than shown in that clip.

If you do not understand what it is for, it’s ok.

There is a difference between not understanding what it is for and training the wrong things. Like not having a jong structure or guard. Or like training push punches.

I am rather interested in what you have to offer for training methods
to develope coordination, balance, distance, timing, strategical aspects and
power.

Many other arts have these real new modern inventions to help with this. They are called pads. And focus mitts. And sparring with padded things on your hands and bodies, which allows for more power in striking. And padded walls and cages, which allow you to train pushing people into something other than a coat rack or drywall or a mirror and actually see what to do when that happens. Sometimes push-punching people into these things actually leads to …GASP… clinch range.

I could google some of those for you if you don’t understand what they are for. They have clips up on YouTube as well.

To say that the punches are only push punches is interesting.
Are you able to see if that punches can hurt or not?

Yes, fairly easily.

Do you hurt your partners in training to show your punching power?
I don’t think so.

Not by course. However, when training striking with proper gear and getting used to actually hitting people and getting hit with power involved, yes people do get hurt even through gear. Typically not critically though - just a normal level of bangs and bruises. Although I’ve seen plenty of people get the wind knocked out of them or knocked down and at least dazed by ko punches. This is so common in some sparring circles that they have funny little phrases for describing it.

What is about the use of timing and distance?

What about it?

If you can use it in a very close range, isn’t it more easy to use it
in a longer distance?

No, actually surprisingly enough there are different techniques that are effective based upon the range. Even you would have a hard time push punching people at a longer distance.

However, there are a lot of different ways to develope skills.
Which one is the best-I don’t know and I don’t care.

Apparantly.

But the WSL-way is a very practical system to build up a good foundation.
And I choose this way for me. No one forces anyone to follow.
So no reason to get upset.
Regards
Michael

Not sure what it is in your mind you have built up as “the WSL-way”. Not arguing with paths in life. I’m just presenting opinion on a video clip presented and the ensuing fanboi complements. I have a different opinion. Not that I’m an expert or anything on WSL, but some guys who train from his system tend to incorporate some more of what I’m talking about. Like Ernie Barrios.

And who’s upset? You? I’m just presenting feedback on a video.

32

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1091222]The clip is another of an endless line of semi-compliant chi sau drilling. The article describes the drill and covers “habits” that help your “development”.

The question is “development in what?” More chi-sau?

The tall guy has a hunched back, and a non-existent upper gate. Nothing is stopping the punches going through there. The other guy is basically walking in to him and punching with push punches.

I’m not sure what that is training. Push punches are useless in a real fight, unless it’s like a schoolyard push fight in elementary school. This is the problem with these compliant drills that do not train anything like what is experienced in a real fight. They set up an alternate unwritten rule set where motions are limited and skill is only determined within that rule set.

Obviously they both think it is skilled, as they have a clip up on the internet on it and support it with a long theoretical article. If I was either one of those guys I wouldn’t put a clip like that up on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Jong structure?

33

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091347]He moves like the guy in Prodigal son :smiley: but, he over turns losing facing [jiu ying] and is fighting aa guy who stands in one spot and throws punches to the same spot that wont hit him anyway…aka …hand chaser :wink: like fighting the tasmanian devil in bugs bunny cartoons…just step away and let him fight the air :smiley:

in the last clip when he is doing the tan to turn and hit the partners outstretched arms…all the partner has to do is remove his hands as the guy is about to touch them and he will overturn with his own momentum, requiring refacing…or fac sao. anyway thats what I see.
Alignment to strike the center not use arms to chase arms…

great movie action![/QUOTE] Agreed he doe’s resemble a reincarnation of Lam Ching Ying From the Prodigal Son and yes he does chase a bit from what i observe for a reason this, being the Controlling aspect..This guy knows how to manipulate and position the bridge arms For example on the first clip check out .044 and 0.47 WTF Never seen Sh%t as sharp as that in along time and ive been living this along time :slight_smile: Like i said in my last post i think his linked to Jiu Wan close Student and friend of GGM Ipman If that be the case it explains alot to myself as Ive wondered why i does’ Sifu Ng chun hong from the Wsl family, first taught by Jiu Wan.and also Sifu LOK Yiu Vingtsun have that distinct Control of Structure and bridge manipulation I know Ipman had this element within his Vingtsun from past testimony of his Students what Iam trying to say is all elements need to be analyzed and obviously validated theres never one be all answer Kevin We do this X To X = x2 sq Must be this Blahhh keeping a open mind is imperative for true growth just as a human being U dig:cool:

34

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091532]Jong structure?[/QUOTE]

Well that certainly explains why you guys get hit a lot.

What I am talking about is the built-in 2 line defence of WCK. This is a core part of the simultaneous attack and defense of WCK as well. It consists of:

  1. Outer Gate - Kiu Jong
  2. Inner Gate - Mun Jong

You may have noticed the standard setup of WCK hands - one outer, one inner that most refer to as man sao and wu sao? Did you know those actually can have some value in preventing a fist from hitting you? And not in a slappy dodge fashion?

To do this, they have to have structure in controlling the space in front of you. This is notably missing in that video clip.

35

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1091639]Well that certainly explains why you guys get hit a lot.

What I am talking about is the built-in 2 line defence of WCK. This is a core part of the simultaneous attack and defense of WCK as well. It consists of:

  1. Outer Gate - Kiu Jong
  2. Inner Gate - Mun Jong

You may have noticed the standard setup of WCK hands - one outer, one inner that most refer to as man sao and wu sao? Did you know those actually can have some value in preventing a fist from hitting you? And not in a slappy dodge fashion?

To do this, they have to have structure in controlling the space in front of you. This is notably missing in that video clip.[/QUOTE]

got a clip :smiley:

36

Some arent bored

Some are. Me.

37

[QUOTE=anerlich;1091669]Some are. Me.[/QUOTE]
so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your…:smiley: you need to get out more.:wink:

38

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1091675]so bored you ave to come ona thread that bores you and tell everyone your…:smiley: you need to get out more.;)[/QUOTE]

Well youre more than happy to hop on a thread and rubbish anything non-pb

So makes your thread critique proof?

39

[QUOTE=GlennR;1091677]Well youre more than happy to hop on a thread and rubbish anything non-pb

So makes your thread critique proof?[/QUOTE]

Never said it was, just posted a clip and article, the rest …:smiley:

40

That clip was not chi sao. Not even close really. It was of 2 men sort of sparring, although one was not skilled while the other was. It was NOT chi sao. Chi Sao is a set patterned drill whereby 2 men can both practive hand techniques in a manner in which they can make them flow smoothly and with precision. It is not a game whereby 2 men try to out chi sao one another. This is what Wing Chun has come to.