It’s great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin.
I learnt Snake, Crane, Tiger, Leopard and Dragon characteristics. Other Wing Chun systems replace the Dragon with Monkey, but the Dragon is definitely connected more to the Opera/Red Junks. Other Wing Chun systems use no animals at all, but the most famous are the Snake & Crane. Of course there is also that European ‘Fox’ in more recent accounts.
Do you have terms that reflect animal characters in your Wing Chun? Do you learn additional Animal Forms in your curriculum similar to other TCMAs from the South like Hung Gar, Choy Lee Fut or Cho Gar?
It would be good to hear your views and experiences
In our system we have Tiger Claw elements, such as using the claw to lap or to attack the throat. There are leopard fist and Dragon fist attacks as well. The essence of the Dragon itself is embedded within the system.
To my knowledge, there are no monkey elements in our system, but then I am not an advanced student, so there may be some of these aspects present, as well.
Animals in wing chun? Nah- not in mine… though some metaphors can help…though they can also confuse specially beginners without good tacit knowledge of wing chun.
My wing chun includes some analysis of human joints and their roles in both stancing and motion.
The Ng Mui mythical story of watching a snake and a crane should not be taken literally but can be useful in understanding, if taken metaphorically about fusing crane’s and some crane system’s fairly straight structure and some snake style energies and motions. Fast mouse stepping sometimes. Quick cat turns sometimes. But these can be practiced and taught without any reference to animals.
BTW-- I had no trouble understanding the crane step kick that Segal taught Machida and was used in knocking out Couture. Elements of it are there in one piece of footwork adapted from chum kiu.
Good replies so far, and as expected some attempts again to dismiss the suggestion entirely!
I have never learnt an animal ‘form’ as such in my Wing Chun learning but have references to them within literature and curriculms which can directly affect the ‘character’ of a technique. Of course I am talking about ‘stage presence’ here too. Exhibiting certain characteristics and being from the Opera I see no reason why we wouldn’t have things like this in Wing Chun.
This one is for Joy:
What do you call the single leg practice??
I ask that you look more into your terms used, especially if you’re versed in the Cantonese curriculums, as it is here that I have heard the animal references. For those who totally dismiss the existence of these stuffs, it’s fine, I’m not trying to force anyone to believe in myths and legends!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096709]It’s great to see animals represented in Wing Chun, as I feel that it helps us connect more to our Traditional roots in Shaolin.
Why is it great??
What makes you think WC has roots in Shaolin?
And how does this help WC as an effective self defense system?
Wouldn’t it be “great” to try it out against other stlyes and situations than live in yesteryear???
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096850]and as expected some attempts again to dismiss the suggestion entirely!
[/QUOTE]
…it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!..but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don’t know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure!
IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn’t be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system. In fact the more I become aware of these problems I’m reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I’ll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them.
I watched a documentary on Wing Chun last night that accompanied my Ip Man 2 DVD. From a Wing Chun point of view all I can say is that it was embarrassing and I feel sorry for all those that believe that what they are watching is a good representation of this system!!!
Yip Man and WSL will be spinning in their graves!!!
[QUOTE=Graham H;1096857]…it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!..but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don’t know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure!
IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn’t be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system. In fact the more I become aware of these problems I’m reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I’ll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them.
I watched a documentary on Wing Chun last night that accompanied my Ip Man 2 DVD. From a Wing Chun point of view all I can say is that it was embarrassing and I feel sorry for all those that believe that what they are watching is a good representation of this system!!!
Yip Man and WSL will be spinning in their graves!!!
GH[/QUOTE]
Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.
The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a “normal” wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.
The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.
There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.
What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1096866]Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.
The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a “normal” wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.
The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.
There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.
What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.[/QUOTE]
I don’t do current “mainland” wc-good Ip Man wc is good enough for me..I don’t have to think of animals to do chin na, train the fingers, etc…all extensions of continued wc training when done well.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1096857]…it needed dismissing entirely because Its incorrect!!..but then again what happens in Foshan Wing Chun I don’t know too much about. No animals in Yip Man - WSLVT thats for sure![/QUOTE]
Interesting comment :o You don’t know what’s happening in the Martial Centre of China (well it was in the days of Leung Jan) yet you rubbish the thought of something different than your own learning?
Well, there are animals represented in Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man teachings and if you have learnt even the basic language of certain moves you will again see evidence of this ‘animal influence’ in what you do too.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1096857]…IMO Ving Tsun has evolved away from traditional shaolin styles of animal influenced kung fu for a very good reason. Those people who are trying to add things that shouldn’t be there are taking away the effectiveness of the system. [/QUOTE]
You’re opinion here is a bit ‘screwed’ to be honest with you. As far as my own research goes, all the traditional elements were present in Ip Mans earlier training in Wing Chun and he purposely removed them when he started teaching in HK, leaving only a trace in the names of certain techniques.
So, in retrospect, these are not ‘added’ they have always been there and Ip Man only removed them to differentiate WCK from the other schools at the time. To fit in the ‘marketplace’ that existed in that era.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1096857]In fact the more I become aware of these problems I’m reluctant to call my system Wing Chun at all. Maybe I’ll just name it Wong Shun Leung Kung Fu because most Wing Chun is laughed at nowadays and I agree with them. [/QUOTE]
You wouldn’t be doing WCK or WSL any harm by doing so imho.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1096888]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t do current “mainland” wc-good Ip Man wc is good enough for me..I don’t have to think of animals to do chin na, train the fingers, etc…all extensions of continued wc training when done well.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Yes Joy, I don’t do current “mainland” WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it. I have, at least, met and watched the Foshan groups demonstrate in person and can see the similarities and differences. Still, I’ve yet to see anything else from the mainland that catches my attention so I can see your view too.
Your lineage may not have animal elements, but other lineages do. The presence of the Dragon is intrinsic in many kung fu styles.
I’m not concerned with other lineages outside Ip Man. Tried Foshan Wing Chun once upon a time…rubbish!!
The Mainland Chinese lineage that I practice has Tiger elements that manifest later on in training. For example the beginners are taught to lap sao in a “normal” wing chun manner, but furhter along training the lap becomes a Tiger Claw grab and pull. Tiger style throat attacks are also taught. The tiger claw is then taught in other Chin-na type attacks/grabs.
Not my thinking but keep up the good work!!!
The fingers are trained intensly at the latter stages of the system, to fascilitate the tiger elements as well as of course for the Biu Jee aspects including vital point strikes.
In my lineage Bil Jee has nothing to do with training the fingers and vital point strikes. Maybe Yip Man invented a whole new system.
There are also Crane type strikes and blocks with the hand as well. We also have leopard, phoenix and Dragon fist strikes.
There are no animal blocks in my lineage. Maybe if cranes and snakes should fight humans. Tigers and leopards only bite and maul…how strong are your teeth??
What do animal elements do for Wing Chun? They bring in much needed richness and further dimensions. This is releveant in view of the fact that most Wing Chun taught nowadays is rather limited in dimensions and essence.
Animal elements do nothing for Wing Chun and thats why we don’t have them. Get a grip!!:D…with your tiger claws!! lol
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096897]Interesting comment :o You don’t know what’s happening in the Martial Centre of China (well it was in the days of Leung Jan) yet you rubbish the thought of something different than your own learning?
Well, there are animals represented in Ip Man - Lee Shing - Joseph Man teachings and if you have learnt even the basic language of certain moves you will again see evidence of this ‘animal influence’ in what you do too.
You’re opinion here is a bit ‘screwed’ to be honest with you. As far as my own research goes, all the traditional elements were present in Ip Mans earlier training in Wing Chun and he purposely removed them when he started teaching in HK, leaving only a trace in the names of certain techniques.
So, in retrospect, these are not ‘added’ they have always been there and Ip Man only removed them to differentiate WCK from the other schools at the time. To fit in the ‘marketplace’ that existed in that era.
You wouldn’t be doing WCK or WSL any harm by doing so imho.[/QUOTE]
I’m not replying to that albeit I do HK Ving Tsun if it makes you feel better. No house pets in my kung fu!!!
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096900]Yes Joy, I don’t do current “mainland” WCK either. Just good old Ip Man WCK with Lee Shing/Joe Mans personality stamped on it. [/QUOTE]
You don’t do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!! WSL said that he teaches “EXACTLY” the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn’t in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn’t work!!!
[QUOTE=Graham H;1096907]You don’t do Ip Man Ving Tsun Spencer otherwise we would be on the same page!!! WSL said that he teaches “EXACTLY” the same system as he was taught by Yip Man. If your stuff isn’t in what I practice then Yip Man obviously didnt teach it to WSL and I would hazzard a guess thats it because it doesn’t work!!!
Tiger[/QUOTE]
Nice try Graham/Tiger
What will really grab you is, yes, I do train Wing Chun from Ip Man, as Lee Shing was a direct student of him, and my Sifu a direct student of Lee Shing, and me etc etc! Lee Shing was even an earlier student than WSL but I know that doesn’t mean much these days. And yes, Lee Shing was known for his own extensive research into WCK, learning from other Masters prior to meeting Ip Man. And yes, WSL knew and respected Lee Shing of course, but you wouldn’t know this right?
WSL said many things, as did every other WCK Sifu who promoted their styles in the UK, including my own Kung Fu Uncle Sifu Goh! The ‘Young Ones’ led the way while my Sigung continued teaching and running restaurants.
Some would say it’s better NOT to teach exactly how you were taught (especially WCK!) as it is a completely personal journey and your teaching will change depending on the student. This happened with ALL of Ip Mans students so to come here and make ridiculous claims about WSL or anyone else having the ‘real’ WCK from Ip Man is actually quite laughable!
You fight and argue with me for nothing but self promotion and it’s all a little jaded now to be honest. Sorry for the bluntness but if what I trained didn’t work I would have left WCK ages ago. Everyone’s an individual and we just don’t know eachothers stories, so let us just leave it at that eh…
