this was from another thread about bagua,
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiz cool c
i’m not saying he can or can’t,but i have been involved in bagua for about maybe 7 years,martial arts maybe close to 30,and to be honestly i haven’t seen a whole lot of proof that bagua works either in sparring or competition, but one thing i can say is, bagua works well in real fights, i can think of at least 4 different occasions i used the techniques in real fights ,and they worked well
And here comes the style conundrum. All styles have kicks right? There is a stomping kick in ba gua in their crane stepping drills. Stomping kicks are in all styles. If I stomp kick a guy tryin to rob me was I doing ba gua or tkd or hung gar? Depending on the style of the person in the fight they will claim they used x style.I don’t believe in any of this using this style or that style in a fight. I don’t believe in any of this using this style or that style in a fight.
so if do bjj and get in a fight and pull off an arm bar can i say i used bjj in a fight?
a lot of martial arts share tenchiques, or have techniques that are incredibly similar to other styles. I would say when using a technique you could best describe them are striking or grappling techniques. and if you’re certain you’re using a technique in the way the style dictates than by all means say you’re using say muay thais roundhouse. But other martial arts also have roundhouse kicks.
If your leg stays straight, you pivot your stepping leg, and enter at a 45 degree angle then you’re using a muay thai round house. if you keep your knee bent and “snap” your roundhouse kick than you’s be using a karate/taekwondo/kung fu roundhouse.
right i see your point. so what if i practice boxing and get into a street fight and knock someone out with a hook punch am i using boxing? or am a wrestler and get in a fight and lateral drop the guy, am i using wrestling?
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1163460]right i see your point. so what if i practice boxing and get into a street fight and knock someone out with a hook punch am i using boxing? or am a wrestler and get in a fight and lateral drop the guy, am i using wrestling?[/QUOTE]
Dude, you have some serious issues. It don’t matter what system you use, because most good systems will all have some pretty decent techniques. They are shared I guess. There is just so many ways to hit or kick someone, and some systems tend to collect the more effective ones, but just because someone from a different fighting system uses the same kick as you, it don’t automatically mean he is doing your system, or you his. Just learn it and practice it and be happy that it works for you.
not the point i’m trying to make, the point is, if i box and knock someone out with a hook people will say boxing works in real life, if someone arm bars someone in a fight and they train bjj,bjj is a real fighting style, but if i use bagua techniques,specific techniques even combinations from the form still i’m not using baugua, it is a way to discredit bagua and kung fu
and i have issues maybe but i’m sure i am still living the dream you wish you were living
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1163467]not the point i’m trying to make, the point is, if i box and knock someone out with a hook people will say boxing works in real life, if someone arm bars someone in a fight and they train bjj,bjj is a real fighting style, but if i use bagua techniques,specific techniques even combinations from the form still i’m not using baugua, it is a way to discredit bagua and kung fu
and i have issues maybe but i’m sure i am still living the dream you wish you were living[/QUOTE]
Wiz cool ,
Living art , lee chiang po , is right it does ’ nt matter what technique you use , what really matters is you are able to survive the situation . And yes , if you beat a person up with only with your fists , yes it ’ s boxing , and that arm bar fight you
are talking about , it could be wrestling , because if you think about it BJJ people would make use of the entire body , arm bar sounds more like wrestling . BJJ can be used against one person , but what if you ’ re surrounded by mutiple opponents , bagua should be working at that time . And if you using techniques from a particular type of bagua form then it is bagua .
Another thing is Wiz cool , is this a trick question ? If you ’ re using techniques from a particular form of bagua , why would it be bagua ? And yes , you ’ re discrediting bagua and kung fu . Why don ’ t you just call it MMA wizcool method .
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1163474]Arm bar =wrestling? Where the heckdid that come from?[/QUOTE]
its lance got to love him lol
To clarify what 76 is on about
wrestling doesn’t have arm bars as such, it’s a pinning not a submission art so it would be BJJ or judo
BJJ can be used against multiple opponents about as well as other arts, ie poorly, but I can use you are a shield whilst doing a standing rear naked and punch a hole through the group to escape for example, or I can body lock you throw you into your friends and then run like h*ll
As for the original point, if it doesn’t work in sparring or competitions but it does work on the street, I would question on who exactly it is working and their skill level, because if you can’t pull something off under controlled conditions against an opponent who is also playing by the same rules, how do you manage to pull it off against someone in a totally no holds barred situation?
AS for are you using your art, well if you are using the structure and power generation you are shown in training, then the actual technique will be from your art whether it’s a stomp, kick or throw, it’s the structure, power generation and training methods that make an art, not the techniques per say
If you train bagua and get into a fight and beat the other guy, then your bagua trained paid off.
That is the most simplest way to see these things.
HOWEVER, the issue is NOT that, the issue is one of HOW did you beat the other guy and it is this “how” that confirms that you beat him with “bagua” (whatever hat may mean).
In short:
If that Bagua YOU were taught and that YOU train is strictly palm work and circular movements and you beat him with a straight punch up the middle, then while you training MAY have helped you, it certainly wasn’t a “bagua technique” that did it.
It would be like saying that you spend all your time in BJJ class working on ground work and then in a fight you take out a guy with a left hook and claim that BJJ is the best !
That makes no sense whatsoever.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1163480]If you train bagua and get into a fight and beat the other guy, then your bagua trained paid off.
That is the most simplest way to see these things.
HOWEVER, the issue is NOT that, the issue is one of HOW did you beat the other guy and it is this “how” that confirms that you beat him with “bagua” (whatever hat may mean).
In short:
If that Bagua YOU were taught and that YOU train is strictly palm work and circular movements and you beat him with a straight punch up the middle, then while you training MAY have helped you, it certainly wasn’t a “bagua technique” that did it. It would be like saying that you spend all your time in BJJ class working on ground work and then in a fight you take out a guy with a left hook and claim that BJJ is the best !
That makes no sense whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
why do i see vitor belfort in my mind as i read this bit lol
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1163483]How many fights did he even win that guy? I can’t remember…but I think he will always be remembered for that “blitzing” fist attack, LOL ![/QUOTE]
he won a fair few with his boxing, and his corner would always chat BJJ afterwards lol
[QUOTE=Frost;1163477]its lance got to love him lol
As for the original point, if it doesnt work in sparring or competitions but it does work on the street, I would question on who exactly it is working and their skill level, because if you cant pull something off under controlled conditions against an opponent who is also playing by the same rules, how do you manage to pull it off against someone in a totally no holds barred situation?
i understand what you are saying. in my on experience,i have trained in many arts over many years. most recently in the last few years bagua and shuai jiao. bagua for maybe 7 year shuai jiao about 5. now i have not seen bagua used often in sparring or in competiton.but i have used it on 4 different occasions successfully. i have trained in shuai jiao and bagua side by side. i spar almost evertime i do shuai jiao,but in the real fights bagua techniques are what came out . and worked well under street fighting condition. now yes i agree that these opponents were not well trained and not as tough as someone you most likely would meet in competition. but hey they are the people who f$%ked with me. and the shuai jiao techniques that i used all the time in sparring didn’t come to mind.
now i can not explain this scientificly,and people will say too deadly for the ring is bull****. but this has been my own real life experience. and these techniques that worked for me well in street fights were identical to those found in the forms i learned.
The way I look at it is this:
I’m a fighter, not a style.
If there’s something from a style that I want to use, and I pull it off, then for me, the style is effective.
I don’t really care what other people label what I do as.
On the other hand, there’s also teaching method, which gets confused with style a lot.
If the teaching method of a particular school is to do nothing but breathing exercises and assume you can magically just fight one day after X number of years of training, I’m not so sure that training at that school is all that useful. That doesn’t mean the style itself isn’t useful in it’s own way.
In the end, there’s no one school or style that is the be-all-end-all of training, because at least 1/3 of your learning should be based on experience (especially with other arts) and nobody can teach you that - you need to do it for yourself.
