Advancing, retreating, false and real

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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On the weekend of March 18th and 19th I will be hosting a little get together in Tampa.
I will be using the form Shaolin Luohan’s 18 Hands to illustrate and explain the concept of continous flow.
This will be taught alongside the keywords advancing, retreating, false and real,

“Within advancing and retreating exists the false and real. The midst of false and real has advancing and retreating.”

In the case of the words false and real they also mean empty and full. This might be an odd pair of words to understand becuase while in English there is a difference between the two terms false and empty, in Chinese it wouldn’t be too far fetched to say that the character xu simultaneusly embodies both the meaning of false and of empty. I will lead the training to sharpen and refine this understanding in terms of contact with the opponent. I mean a lot of non stop contact.

About advancing and retreating:
To understand advancing and retreating is to apply them at the right moment.
To understand false and real is to give way and to take advantage of the situation at the right moment. This method of training emphasizes taking advantage of the opponent’s lack of ability to be IN the moment. Or you can say we take advantage of the opponent’s inability to know where the energy is and isn’t.

This can be said to be a part of the internal family of boxing(nei jia chuen).
The last seminar explored the wai jia aspects of Mantis Boxing. This time we will explore the nei jia aspects of Mantis Boxing. And we will do it thru a wai jia form. Don’t worry if it is odd to do a wai jia form with nei jia sensitivity. I assure you it is not against the rules.

Kevin

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Sounds great.

For me, the more ‘internal’ aspects have always just meant finer levels of sensitivity and control of power generatioin that you gain later in training. So, I guess I don’t see the difference too much.

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Hi Matt,
Here is a paraphrase of the original definition of the internal and external schools of boxing.

The external school of boxing means to attack your opponent as if to chop him down.
The internal school of boxing means to lie in wait reacting off of the opponent’s attack.

To use an analogy;
When a woodsman chops down a tree his singular concern is to go through the tree.
But, when a butcher splits and divides an oxen he uses the blade to feel his way through the joints and tendons.

Although neither of the two concepts can exist alone, yet there is a distinct difference between them. By bringing one or the other into focus we can develop either of those skills within ourselves.
From talking to you in person I think that this explanation won’t change your present perception of these terms, but instead will serve to add to it.

I hope that helps.

But, another way to look at it…
Forget the terms internal and external!!

Just think of what we will do as methods to train the apps of the form while at the same time using a proven and traditional method of building up the students subtle sensitivity to perceiving the opponents intention. We will follow this with turning a defense into an offense.

One thing is for sure. Every time I teach this the students feel a great sense of accomplishment in realizing a level of sensitivity they never knew they had(at least that is what they told me).

Kevin

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it sounds like what you are saying is that they are simply two side to the same coin. ???

i mean, from a tactical standpoint sometimes it’s a better tactic to wait and in others to immediately attack ???

even when splitting the tree the woodsman needs to be sensitive to a hidden knot in the tree that might turn the axe.

thank you

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Hi Matt,

“it sounds like what you are saying is that they are simply two side to the same coin. ???”

Yes, you can say that. But, that turns the issue into a black and white ‘either or issue.’
We could also say that the property of heat can not exist with out the property of cold. And yet heat is only a relative term. So everything within the world of hot and cold is defined by its relation to another temperature.

In the same way, your attack and defense are always to some degree defined by your opponent.
Make sense?

“i mean, from a tactical standpoint sometimes it’s a better tactic to wait and in others to immediately attack ???”

This was best defined by Sun Zi in his military textbook. When to wait and when not to wait. He goes into great detail.

For example, if the opponent is rash provoke him to attack.
If he darts about wait for him to exhuast himself. This type of thing, though I would have to dig up the quote.
As soon as my new book shelves are in order I will be able to spew out those old quotes.

“even when splitting the tree the woodsman needs to be sensitive to a hidden knot in the tree that might turn the axe.”

Yes! The empty within the full. Or the soft within the hard.
The yin within the yang.
Or the yielding within the unyielding.

Most important is to adapt oneself to the situation at hand.

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Yes, you can say that. But, that turns the issue into a black and white ‘either or issue.’
We could also say that the property of heat can not exist with out the property of cold. And yet heat is only a relative term. So everything within the world of hot and cold is defined by its relation to another temperature.

it’s all relative to the situation at hand. that’s why I think talking technique and theory on the internet is very limited. there are so many variables you have to, as you say:

I will lead the training to sharpen and refine this understanding in terms of contact with the opponent. I mean a lot of non stop contact.

you have to do it, experience it and keep trying to experience with as many different people as possible to get as many variables as possible.

LOL, even though a coin has just two sides, there is still a chance that it will land on the edge. :wink:

In the same way, your attack and defense are always to some degree defined by your opponent.
Make sense?

absolutely…can there be any other way? without the opponent there is no need for attack or defense.

This was best defined by Sun Zi in his military textbook. When to wait and when not to wait. He goes into great detail.

For example, if the opponent is rash provoke him to attack.
If he darts about wait for him to exhuast himself. This type of thing, though I would have to dig up the quote.
As soon as my new book shelves are in order I will be able to spew out those old quotes.

no need to hurry on my account, I’ve read it and while I can’t spout the quotes either, I think I get it.

Yes! The empty within the full. Or the soft within the hard.
The yin within the yang.
Or the yielding within the unyielding.

I am reluctant to go down the path of discussing yin/yan and the tao online…so many of the concepts end up being trivialized while they are being aggrandized.

but, yes, the problem, I think, is that the change happens so quick that it’s very hard to talk about all the variables that cause the change fast enough.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

:slight_smile:

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Hi Guys,

Well, just imagine how cool it would be living next door to Kevin. :smiley:

Anyway, great to hear that another seminar is planed.

Hi Oso,

I hear you and I totally understand where you are coming from. However, I think it would be beneficial to understand those terms and the connotations behind them. I believe it would help to develop the game based on Tanglang approach. So… It might be akward in the beginning to try to grasp those terms but once you are used to them, it would be a piece of cake. This goes with the other stuffs like the 12 Keywords and such.

Warm regards

Robert

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Robert,

I hear you and that’s what I’m after. That’s why all the questions. :slight_smile:

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eagle siezes the gullet

The first move in Shaolin Luohan’s 18 Hands is called eagle siezes the gullet. This move is from the eagle claw style and can be considered one of its essential attacking methods.

In the old mantis boxing manuscript it talks about this technique with a slightly different name as well as a different perspective. It is titled," To defeat golden rooster seizes the gullet."
This technique is really very similar to the essential mantis move straight punch to the face(yin mian zhi tong), but with some important differences.

The straight punch requires a speedy strike with a lot of power as well as a fist hard as a rock. Eagle siezes the gullet requires none of this. Sometimes it works best when the hand just casually moves forward like a pat on the shoulder. It can be done with no power on the forward strike as well. This often causes the opponent to miscalculate since strikes with no power are unusual. What it does require is a coconut crushing grip(I recommend you don’t grip someone’s throat
and use coconut crushing power!).

About the age of this form itself I can not say, but all the moves in the form are from ancient times. Some of the terms used to describe the moves in this form are not listed in modern Chinese dictionaries and I had a hard time tracking down the old pronunciations and meanings.

This move also appears in White Ape Steals the Peach in the 4th road. From the HK school of Mantis Boxing will find this move in the form Mantis Steals the Peach.

Kevin

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I just ran across an older issue of Kung Fu mag that has an article that says it’s Shaolin Shiba Shou…it’s at the school, I’ll bring it home tonight and see if it’s the same thing.

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[QUOTE=K.Brazier]On the weekend of March 18th and 19th I will be hosting a little get together in Tampa.

What time is the get together? Where will it be held? What is the consideration for the seminar?

Thanks,

Darryl

ps. It’s good to be back on the forum. I miss you PG guys.

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Kevin,
In our 8 step joint locks we have a chin na Jien ( neck) tech. called controlling the roosters throat. Is this what you are taking about? it is a individual tech, not a form am I clear on this that they are the same in which you speak? thanks

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joe mantis

it lives!!!

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The article is in the July/Aug 2004 issue of Kung Fu/Tai Chi magazine.

It’s title is “Shaolin Lohan 18 Hand Movements: Lohan Shi Ba Shou”

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=500

there doesn’t appear to be an online version of the article though.

It details these movements:

[I]Jade Belt Wrapped Around the Body

Golden Cicada Shedding Shell

Lifting the Body, Dotting the Ribs[/I]

I’ll bring the copy with me.

15

Don’t tease me!

Time, Place, etc… I need some Mantis Boxing

This will be the 1st time in 2 1/2 freaking years that I can actually pull away from the business.

Give some details please. I need a mantis fix man. Hook a brother up will ya?

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Hi Joe,
It is a get together. It starts when you show up.
I think I will start teaching Fri night if anone shows up at the school.
BTW, I now live in fl 2 miles from the school so you can come when you want. For the Tenn guys we have to make a big production since they live so far away.

Matt, I look forward to reading the mag when you bring it. According to the names you list it is NOT the same form.

I have two manuscripts for this form and it is a well known standardized form.

18 Luohan is a very popular term and used for many things in Chinese MA.

ED,
I am pretty sure that you are talking of a different move.
Siezing the Eagles gullet means to put your hand on the opponent’s neck. It is not considered chinna from my perspective, though it could be since the other hand must first control the opponent’s hand.

In my training method the important point is how you can actually get your ahnd on the opponent’s throat in a crafty way, since most people don’t let you put your hand there.

Here is one crafty way,“Hey, what is that on your shirt?” Slowly and gently reach over then grab his throat.

Some of theneck locks I was taught were explained as being variations of Mantis Siezes the Cicada.
Hope that helps.

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I’ll be sure to bring it. I just happened to be flipping through my stack of back issues and saw it.

I’m very curious and interested about this throat grabbing…when I did hung gar, tiger was very natural for me and I was taught to ‘go for the throat’ and became rather good at sneaking in for the grab.

For the Tenn guys we have to make a big production since they live so far away.

and us NC peeps :wink:

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Kevin, thanks for the reply. i too am talking about a throat grab. However it is listed in our joint locks. As you are joint locking your opponents arm underneath your arm next to the rib cage and your right hand then controls or seizes the throat. i have included the worded application. i would be interested if it is indeed the same.

CONTROLLING THE ROOSTER’S THROAT
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB , LEFT ELBOW BREAK , LEFT UPPERCUT
UNDER OPPONENTS ARM
O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK
D. GRAB BLOCK WITH RIGHT HAND , PUSH OPPONENTS RIGHT ARM BEHIND YOU GRAB THROAT WITH HAWK HANDS.

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i know you addressed this to Kevin but I’m having a little trouble following the description

not criticising, just trying to figure out what you’re doing

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Oso, alow me to be more descriptive

I’m assuming the following is done from outside the punching arm?

yes closing the centerline with a right handed mantis grab

D. RIGHT MANTIS GRAB

LEFT ELBOW BREAK

w/ forearm of left arm?

yes, as in a powercut breaking opponents right elbow with your left arm or the same motion if you just hyper extend his elbow

LEFT UPPERCUT UNDER OPPONENTS ARM

then slip under the arm you just broke w/ the uppercut of the arm you used to break his?

correct this technique alone is highly effective as it (the uppercut) cannot be seen

what are your body mechanics while doing this?

simple sliding step inward while your body is at an angle

O. LEFT SIDE BLOCK

He’s blocking your uppercut? What is a ‘side block’?

regular side slap block, this allows you to grab his blocking hand and grab the throat with your right hand without having to worry about a counter punch

D. GRAB BLOCK WITH RIGHT HAND

so, he blocks your left uppercut and you grab his left blocking hand w/ your right hand

no left hand you simply turn your left hand over and grab his wrist

PUSH OPPONENTS RIGHT ARM BEHIND YOU GRAB THROAT WITH HAWK HANDS.

while you are under his right arm following your uppercut and you have turned your left hand around and grabbed his left side block , with your right hand you reach down and while moving off your angle to face directly in front of your opponent, you push his right arm weather broken or just hyper extended to your left side against your ribs then with your right hand reach up and seize his throat. this way his right arm is under your armpit and his left hand is grabbed buy your left hand

It may seem a little intricite and hard to follow written but it is very easy and effective to do this. i have often had patrons in the bars iwhere i bounced at taken out of the bar with this very technique of course without the elbow break.

Did i explain it in a way you understand better? let me know, try it a couple of times as it is a great technique to know..