yep, thanks.
I was mostly right in what I thought you were saying.
leaving for class…more later.
left pluck and right attack
Moves off of left plucking right attack:
One of the ideas in this form is to use the left hand to pluck the opponent’s hand and use the right hand to attack. The attack that you apply is based on the situaion you find yourself in. So you would do the above mentioned throat grab if it was convenient to do so, but if the opponent was leaning back or moving away you might use one of the similar moves but with advancing footwork.
The purpose of the training is to give you, as the attacker, an instinctual feeling of what to apply as well as grasping the perfect time to apply it.
And to give the defender the skills to worm his way out of the attack and immediately counter attack.
There are six types of attack in this form that follow the pattern of left pluck right attack.
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Eagle siezes Gullet. My left hand grabs the opponent’s left hand and pulls it to my waist as my right hand siezes his throat (different than your move ED).
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Carrying basket Manuever. My left hand grabs his right hand and steps in for a takedown. It looks as if a heavy basket is looped over your right forearm in the solo version.
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Interconnected Straight punch. My left hand grabs his right hand and I advance the step while attacking with a striaght punch. This is the Mantis boxing name of this move. In this form the move is called single rafter. I had a terrible time in tracking down the meaning of this character. The ancient meaning was listed as the rafter or central roof beam of the house. My educated guess is that it was also the name used for the battering ram used by enemy soldiers on striking the city gate during times of war. In fact that is the proper way to apply the move. The body rams forward while the arm is like a battering ram.
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Gou Zi Bu. The hooking step as we say in some school of Mantis Boxing. Some schools call this chao tuei. In this Shaolin form it is called Hanging the Golden Hook. The left hand hooks the opponent’s left hand and my right hand does an inverse grab to his throat so that I can pull his neck into my body. WHile this is happening my right ankle kicks and lifts behind his left ankle for the takedown.
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Taishan yading. In this case the right strike is a smash to his face.
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Figure ten kick and advancing Mandarin Duck Kicks. He tries to escape my attacks so I jump forward with kicks both low and high.
Kevin
Shibo, you mentioned the importance of this form when you were in Asheville.
Would you mind elaborating on why and where you feel this fits in to the grand scheme of chinese boxing?
Also, we are trying to be in Tampa between 5 and 6 on Friday the 17th.
Kevin, its intersesting that i have been taught very similar techniques with similar names. I was always taught that it was feng Hua Yi that added joint locks to our lineage of 8 step and thus the names for them remain the same. i.e
- Eagle siezes Gullet. My left hand grabs the opponent’s left hand and pulls it to my waist as my right hand siezes his throat (different than your move ED).
but yet named closly and I posted our worded version previous
- Carrying basket Manuever. My left hand grabs his right hand and steps in for a takedown. It looks as if a heavy basket is looped over your right forearm in the solo version.
We have this under PALM ( TSANG ) locks
we cal it holding the basket( CHOW NA QUA LAN )
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT LOW BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGHT BLOCK
D. LEFT STEALING HANDS , RIGHT ELBOW BREAK
O. BENDS ELBOW
D. SLIDE RIGHT ARM UNDER ELBOW GRAB WRIST PULL BACK.
- Interconnected Straight punch. My left hand grabs his right hand and I advance the step while attacking with a striaght punch. This is the Mantis boxing name of this move. In this form the move is called single rafter. I had a terrible time in tracking down the meaning of this character. The ancient meaning was listed as the rafter or central roof beam of the house. My educated guess is that it was also the name used for the battering ram used by enemy soldiers on striking the city gate during times of war. In fact that is the proper way to apply the move. The body rams forward while the arm is like a battering ram.
again we have this under ELBOW ( TSOU ) lock
we call this
CHANGE THE POST HOLDING THE ROOF ( HO DUA BAN DO )
O. PUNCHES RIGHT
D. LEFT SIDE BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. RIGHT SIDE BLOCK , LEFT SUN PUNCH
D. LEFT SIDE BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
O. LEFT HIGH BLOCK , RIGHT SUN PUNCH
D. LEFT HIGH BLOCK , GRAB CIRCLE UNDER OPPONENTS ARM ,
LOCK ELBOW AS YOU LIFT SHOULDER.
whats your take on this? thanks
“Would you mind elaborating on why and where you feel this fits in to the grand scheme of chinese boxing?”
It is a good link from the beginner level to the intermediate level.
It is close to Shaolin’s 8 step Continuous Punches form. So learning one after the other performs a coherent teaching method.
This form also makes a good overview of what is in store for the student as they progress as it contains kicks, punches, chin na and throws.
Students enjoy learning this form as the techniques flow from one to the other very easily.
It can be used for both children and adults. Except for the fact that it is short it does not appear to be a beginner form.
It makes a good bridge whether the student will be learning mantis form such as Luanjie and beng bu or if the student will be moving on tho the three Hu yan forms.
I like to use this form as an explanation of how to move from the open and closed position to different types of kicks, punches, chin na and throws.
If you wanted to concentrate soley on Mantis you could leave this form out, but I find it is hard to teach Mantis to beginners.
So That is why some of my shiye would make you do basic roads for six months or just have a class of nothing but horse stances.
Kevin
“I was always taught that it was feng Hua Yi that added joint locks to our lineage of 8 step and thus the names for them remain the same.”
Other mantis masters were also very accomplished at chin na. For the most part this is that aspect that is passed on in a very small setting of a few people or just teacher and student.
Before my Mei Hua Master passed away, Luan Xingfu, I had a chance to see him operate his chin na.
My elder explained and showed me how Zhang Dekeui(mimen) would apply chin na to him.
These masters both applied their chin na off of their attacks. When you try to escape they just convert.
Robert’s Master, Zhao Zhuxi, Was also a chin na expert. My shifu went to train with him and was highly inspired.
The moves you listed do not seem the same as the ones in this form. I will put together a video of this some day this year.
Kevin
Thanks. See you soon.
K Brazier , thanks for the replies. As you know I am trying to link together the my teachings of 8 step into others teachings and knowledge to find a common thread/ground. We were always told of masters in our lineage adding things to MeiHuia to make it a hybrid system. From my understanding Chiang Hua long added the footwork, Feng the joint locks, Wei the taichi from Wu Ching Chan. Shyun bringing it to the US and Dean teaching to the masses. So i find it interesting that so many things sound similar but not quite the same. I am wondering if it was lost in translation, teaching or what. What is taught in one part of the world to the students should also be taught in another part of the worldwithout much difference. So far paul lin, you and Robert all seem to the most knowledgable on the origins and places for the things others may wish to know. And for that I am grateful. I hope to come to FLA in the next year or so and meet you. be well…
"So i find it interesting that so many things sound similar but not quite the same. I am wondering if it was lost in translation, teaching or what. "
Actually,
It is becuase the terms have a lot of cliches.
I will post the complete manuscript of the form for you to see.
Kevin
Here is the old manuscript of the form.
Sorry I don’t have the Chinese here.
If there is a strong interest I will put that up too.
For those who attend make a copy of this for reference sake.
Shaolin’s 18 Hands of Luohan
1. Eagle Seizes the Gullet- Ying Tao Su- Supporting Hands- Tuo Shou
2. Carrying Basket Maneuver- Kua Lan Shi
3. Drawing the Bow- Ying Kai Gong
4. Support the Beam Fire Cannon- Jia Liang Pao
5. Dragon Descends from Heaven Hand- Jiang Long Shou
6. Monk Strikes the Bell – Seng Qiao Zhong
7. Cleverly Thread the Needle – Qiao Ren Jen
8. Single Rafter (Left and Right Side)- Yi Tiao Quan
9. Hanging Golden Hook- Jin Gou Gua
10. Seize and Wrap the Silk- Niu Chan Si
11. Rebel Sweeping Kick- Sao Dang Tui
12. Open Body Fist- Pi Shen Chui
13. Kicking Ball Maneuver- Ti Qiu Jiao
14. Mandarin Duck Kicks- Yuan Yang Jiao
15. Cleaving Firewood Maneuver- Pi Chai Shi
16. Monk Subdues Tiger- Seng Fu Hu
**Drawing the Bow- Ying Kai Gong
17. Oblique Luan Elbow- Ao Luan Zhou
**Monk Strikes the Bell- Seng Qiao Zhong
**Cleverly Thread the Needle- Qiao Ren Jen
18. Monk Pushes the Gate- Seng Tui Men
**Close Hands- Bi Shou
Done. Thanks.
whew…what a weekend. We had a total of 5 training sessions: Fri night, Sat Morn/Afternoon/Evening and Sunday morning…12 or more hours total. It was the most I’ve trained since surgery…as all of you could tell from all the heavy breathing. 
Shibo, I have realized I also forgot to bring the magazine…sorry. I’m looking at it now and it doesn’t seem to be the same one but they do only show those three movements as application and not as form…could maybe be the same but I don’t think so. What they are calling “Lifting the body, dotting the Ribs” looks similar to “Drawing the bow” in application. I will photocopy and mail to you.
It was great to meet some new folks and train with some of the family again. Let’s keep this momentum up.
Shibo, thanks for taking time away from your wife and children to teach us.
Xie Xie Laoshr.
Hi Matt,
I am happy you enjoyed it, bu keqi.
It was a good post operative workout.
Some folks have asked what were all the drills based upon.
They were based upon the double palms.
This is found in 8 Hard as following step double palms.
7 Long as wrapping hands double palms.
Monk closes the gate, etc.
The easiest way to introduce double palms is with an zhang, or pressing palms.
Later you can add in all the other types of double palms which are found in this form as wel as Shaolin 8 step continuous punch. Not to mention many others.
Drawing the bow-Ying kai gung is one of the most common postures in MA both Northern and Southern.
The similar posture in Shaolin 8 step continuous punch is sometimes called,“Bending the bow and shooting the tiger”-wan gung she hu.
Kevin
very much enjoyed it…I feel like I’ve made some connections between things…I’ve gone back to the 8 Step Continuous Punch tape and watched it again and I think I see some patterns…but, who knows, sometimes I read too much into things and make it more complicated than it is…oh, well…I’ll be back down shortly.
Here’s a shot of the group this weekend.
Kevin is center front of course.
From left to right, front row to back row.
Oso, Xiong Tang Lang, K. Brazier, Yu Shan, _____
Joe Mantis,Sylvia, Becky,,
Oscar, Metal Mantis, Frank.
names left out to protect the innocent.
two more pics. my battery died so I only got a few stills.
I’m not looking at my notes at the moment, hopefully I’m right in this: This was application of move #9 Hanging Golden Hook
Did you have to put my face on there?
I appreciate the pic though. Nice camera work:)
What a great weekend. It was terrific to meet some new folks and see the old ones again.
Oh course the training sessions speak for themselves.
Thanks Kevin!
Who’s got wrist burn?
sorry man, they were the only ones we got before the camera died.
they did turn out well though didn’t they?
What a GREAT weekend I learned so much. Sifu Kevin is a wealth of knowledge & talent. Had a incredible time meeting everyone and training with them.The ride home was quiet and gave me time to digest all the information, I look foward to training with everyone in the future.
Thanks to all.
an zhang “pressing palms”
Well I will begin with an zhang. This is a very nice method of building your sensitivity to perceive your opponents intentions. I thought that I was pretty good at this anyway, but this pressing palms method has really helped hone my level of sensitivity. It really is an amazing little exercise. We free flowed from one technique to the next, unless you came to a throw and they were brutal. For instance the “carrying the basket”, there was no good way to fall on this one. The form we learned was short but full of material, and very good material. It covered just about everything you needed to know as a beginner/intermediate student. (kicks, punches, chin na and throws) This is a good form for kids and adults, we had a 12 year old in attendance, he picked up the information just as well as the adults. I will be experimenting with an zhang to encompass previously taught material.
Kao Da- Kevin spent some quality time with Oso, Shifu Mike Courcelle and myself on the structure of presenting Kao Da training. I had been taught most of these but Kevin added a few I had never seen, plus he put some spice into the ones I knew. He helped us put them in an order that made more sense. I pride myself with Kao Da training I personally think it is an essential part of Mantis Boxing.
This was a very good training weekend. There was no time for our usual fine dinners together due to late nights of training and all of us were basically gased.
Thanks Shibo for all your quality time and knowledge, we look forward to the next one.
Shibo:
This might be stating the obvious but…
In reviewing last weekends material I have also gone back and reviewed the Ba Bu Lien Hua (sp?) tape and am refreshing myself on the drills from there.
I see a very obvious continuity in training progression and methodology betwixt the two.
Could you elaborate more on the origins of both of these sets and how they relate to each other?