A data point from 1848 era

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265511]
Saying these above, I sure could become a hang man of many others, but I think the Wck ancestors would like us to see the facts instead of lost in our own thinking. Because only facing reality one can stand solid and tall.[/QUOTE]

Ok Hendrik. I see that you are not just speaking against KLPSWCK because it is San Sik based, but rather against everyone’s SLT practice! But I understand what you are saying. I may give it a try! :wink: Thanks for the explanation in your other post.

22
  1. what does the word/term ‘gong’ mean? (I think ‘fat’ means method?). And, he also spells gong as gung… are they the same thing? ------

Gong or gung or Kung means “skill " " capability”

  1. can someone give an example using “today’s terminology” of what “gong fat” is/does to a wing chun response (say, something like Tan sau and punch or pak sau and punch, etc)? ------

For example

Say Punching ,

Wck doesn’t pull back to punch , Wck punch doesn’t work like the long fist art which using the 40cm clearance space to generate accelerate the strike.

Thus, with Wck gong fat, wcner can strike without that 40cm space needed. That is the well known inch punch.

On the other hand,
if wcner need that 40cm clearance to strike, it doesn’t work well with Wck strategy which occupied the 40cm space to jam the long fist art, And it doesn’t have any advantage over the long fist .

Snt needs the emei mother art technology because the snake slide worm move technology of emei , is responsible to have fine handling of joints, which lead to force flow and fast acceration handling.

  1. what does it mean: “Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle”? -----

Be able to do a strike without pulling back punch and not using the 40 cm clearance means inch power ability. Only inner circle students are taught and develop this power generation which is critical to support the Wck strategy.

I’m trying to follow this conversation topic but the section I quoted above from Hendrik doesn’t make sense yet. Thanks guys. ------

Hope it make sense for you now.

23

[QUOTE=KPM;1265520]Ok Hendrik. I see that you are not just speaking against KLPSWCK because it is San Sik based, but rather against everyone’s SLT practice! But I understand what you are saying. I may give it a try! :wink: Thanks for the explanation in your other post.[/QUOTE]

Great !

I don’t want to be the smart A$$ that everyone wants to hang. But there are certain message if we don’t share we screw the Wck ancestors and future wcners big time.

24

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1265515]wing chun will never work as by using long fist art power generation, no matter how hard or how many years you practice. You can’t beat a long fist art such as western boxing or CLF at their own game since that’s what their art is designed to do, instead I believe wing chun was designed to specialized in close range fighting where we will take away their advantage and implement ours by not giving them the necessary space to function or to generate power.
Remember every art has it’s strengths and weakness, wing chun’s strength are in close, while it’s weaknesses are in long range or on the ground in a grappling scenerio.[/QUOTE]

One can’t be a cat and a bird and a fish in the same time. So, a bird needs to be a bird first . Not trying to be a cat or a fish.

Also, trying to use a hammer to cut a wire or a saw to nail a nail is just brute force which is not effective.

My late instructor of kyokushin told me,
In the 1970, when Ali fight the Japanese wrestle. The Japanese wrestle went to Mas oyama, consult how to fight Ali,

Oyama told him to never stands on his feet and keep sweeping Ali leg, eat him alive when he is on ground. But if you stood up to face Ali , you will be eating alive.

That is the reality based on best fighters data points. What make one think we are any special?

The disaster come when one doesn’t know what one good at. And thinking one is so special and secret can made one superman. I try to bring 1848 here with verify data point to tell a story of there is not much different between 1848 and today in reality. One needs to be pragmatic knowing exactly what is going on. I talk about Qi but never I get woo woo ,instead can convert Qi into bio effect.

From 1845 to 1865 , about 20 millions life lost in that uprising in china which involve Wck ancestors . Who is so special? None. No superman no kungfu movie, no legend. In fact , there are hundred of generals participate in that uprising from both side , and none is superman, but all are capable men from both side, the Qing and the anti Qing, read the history.

One can only be who one is.

25

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265525]
Gong or gung or Kung means “skill " " capability”

For example

Say Punching ,

Wck doesn’t pull back to punch , Wck punch doesn’t work like the long fist art which using the 40cm clearance space to generate accelerate the strike.

Thus, with Wck gong fat, wcner can strike without that 40cm space needed. That is the well known inch punch.

On the other hand,
if wcner need that 40cm clearance to strike, it doesn’t work well with Wck strategy which occupied the 40cm space to jam the long fist art, And it doesn’t have any advantage over the long fist .

Snt needs the emei mother art technology because the snake slide worm move technology of emei , is responsible to have fine handling of joints, which lead to force flow and fast acceration handling.

Be able to do a strike without pulling back punch and not using the 40 cm clearance means inch power ability. Only inner circle students are taught and develop this power generation which is critical to support the Wck strategy.

Hope it make sense for you now.[/QUOTE]

That helps! Thank you.

26

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265526]Great !

I don’t want to be the smart A$$ that everyone wants to hang. But there are certain message if we don’t share we screw the Wck ancestors and future wcners big time.[/QUOTE]

You know, KLPSWCK has Got Bong, Got Gan, and Tun Sao that aren’t really found in Yip Man WCK. These elements are perfect for working the closer range that you mention. In fact, when you were demo’ing on your dummy the first thing you did was a KLPSWCK Got Bong to illustrate the close range distance!

27

[QUOTE=KPM;1265530]You know, KLPSWCK has Got Bong, Got Gan, and Tun Sao that aren’t really found in Yip Man WCK. These elements are perfect for working the closer range that you mention. In fact, when you were demo’ing on your dummy the first thing you did was a KLPSWCK Got Bong to illustrate the close range distance![/QUOTE]

Agree.

Wck is Wck, if we go to 1848. We are all one Wck family.

28

[QUOTE=KPM;1265530]You know, KLPSWCK has Got Bong, Got Gan, and Tun Sao that aren’t really found in Yip Man WCK. These elements are perfect for working the closer range that you mention. In fact, when you were demo’ing on your dummy the first thing you did was a KLPSWCK Got Bong to illustrate the close range distance![/QUOTE]

Hi KPM,

What is “Got” = ______?
And is your “Tun” Sao the same thing as a “Tan” Sao in YPWCK?

Thx.

29

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265525]1) what does the word/term ‘gong’ mean? (I think ‘fat’ means method?). And, he also spells gong as gung… are they the same thing? ------

Gong or gung or Kung means “skill " " capability”

  1. can someone give an example using “today’s terminology” of what “gong fat” is/does to a wing chun response (say, something like Tan sau and punch or pak sau and punch, etc)? ------

For example

Say Punching ,

Wck doesn’t pull back to punch , Wck punch doesn’t work like the long fist art which using the 40cm clearance space to generate accelerate the strike.

Thus, with Wck gong fat, wcner can strike without that 40cm space needed. That is the well known inch punch.

On the other hand,
if wcner need that 40cm clearance to strike, it doesn’t work well with Wck strategy which occupied the 40cm space to jam the long fist art, And it doesn’t have any advantage over the long fist .[/QUOTE]

Hendrik I’ll agree with you on the Wing Chun mechanics here but not completely on Long Fist. I realize that you are doing this to illustrate a point but I think it needs clarification. Many Long Fist systems and Western Boxing contain “inch power” for when in very close. It’s a common misconception that simply because your arms are outstretched in Long Fist that you are far away, when in reality we could be cheek to cheek.

Snt needs the emei mother art technology because the snake slide worm move technology of emei , is responsible to have fine handling of joints, which lead to force flow and fast acceration handling.

  1. what does it mean: “Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle”? -----

Be able to do a strike without pulling back punch and not using the 40 cm clearance means inch power ability. Only inner circle students are taught and develop this power generation which is critical to support the Wck strategy.

I see what your trying to allude to, but you have to be careful here your headed down that slippery slope again. You call it Ermei technology, that’s fine I don’t link the Gung Fat to another system, I personally think it was part of the conception process. Gung Fat (Method of Skill) is the “mother theory” of movement that binds movements together to create a flow based upon the “mother theory”. Example, make an inward circling motion with your arm, now keeping the motion and punch, then block, then pull etc. The circle is Gung Fat, it connects the punch, the block and the pull in a way they otherwise wouldn’t be. For those interested, yes this method of Gung Fat can be present in San Sik.

Overall good post Hendrik. Please just slow down and take the time to explain in better detail, this will cut down on the flak.

30

Hendrik I’ll agree with you on the Wing Chun mechanics here but not completely on Long Fist. I realize that you are doing this to illustrate a point but I think it needs clarification.

Many Long Fist systems and Western Boxing contain “inch power” for when in very close. It’s a common misconception that simply because your arms are outstretched in Long Fist that you are far away, when in reality we could be cheek to cheek.------

IMHO,

Inch power in short strike art and long fist systems are two different things.
For example, in YKSLT inch power Qi medirians handling is involve. That type of inch power is what I am talking about.

I see what your trying to allude to, but you have to be careful here your headed down that slippery slope again.

You call it Ermei technology, that’s fine I don’t link the Gung Fat to another system, I personally think it was part of the conception process. Gung Fat (Method of Skill) is the “mother theory” of movement that binds movements together to create a flow based upon the “mother theory”.

Example, make an inward circling motion with your arm, now keeping the motion and punch, then block, then pull etc. The circle is Gung Fat, it connects the punch, the block and the pull in a way they otherwise wouldn’t be. For those interested, yes this method of Gung Fat can be present in San Sik.-------

What I present is a description.
It is emei technology because in the 1848 YKSLT writing it is clearly and solidly define , it is an emei technology. It is not a theory, not what I think , but a facts with trackable evidence.

It also beyond what you describe as gung fat above. The emei technology is a well define technology based on biomechanics, mind, breathing , Qi flow, force flow, and momentum.

Using your inward circle as an example above.

The YKSLT kuit wrote:

Y7
Pay attention to handling of the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .

Y8
Spiral twisting (turning ) naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the Qi flow in the medirians.

Note:
Y7 and Y8 of the pre 1848 writing above are now postitivelt identify as from the Emei 12 zhuang ancient document by evidence. And due to we can track to the Emei 12 zhuang or the mother art writing exactly , that give us a clear details on the contents and handling and relationship of SNT to its mother art.

It is this type of depth we now have accessed to. So, we do know very specifically on the subject .

Overall good post Hendrik. Please just slow down and take the time to explain in better detail, this will cut down on the flak. ------

Good suggestion. Thanks

it is good to bring up issue so I response, for me, after decades of sleeping with these stuffs. Everything is obvious for me. Which I Expect not obvious to others, thus, I expect question for me to do clarification.

31

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265495] So, if one doesn’t go through the six steps in a step by step progressive way after every miles stone develop, one will not develop the gong. If one mis a step , one will never get the target result . If one have totally no idea on these steps and process, one cannot develop the Kung.

In today’s language, This is a software , the hard ware or SNT cheography is there but needs software to training the hard ware.

San sik, is not doing the above. But a scenerio of application. Everything has their place but they are different.

If one doesn’t practice or implement the above gong fat or process or formulae 2014 intentionally within SNT more then one hundred hours , one really doesn’t know what it is. Usually needs a thousand hour to have a good handling.
So, no, just practice SNT doesn’t get one there.

Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle in the ancient, San sik can teach to every students. Without the gung fat development San sik really doesn’t function well.

For example, in the YouTube above, I enter my body to stick at the woodern dummy range which is the sweet spot of Wck 1848 IMHO , from fist range , to elbow , to shoulder range. And play there .

In today’s language, That is just a biu Jee set equivalent type of enter the body San sik. But without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn’t work well in that range.

Thus, there are the body gong and application or sau faat. The gong faat and sau faat. One needs both to get a compete art. Usually, in ancient only sau faat is teaches, but San gong hidden. Thus, that is a major cause of the losing of the art because when the short strike art San gong is replace by the long fist San gong. That is the beginning of in effective and chaos evolution. IMHO.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

I am not saying who is original or pure or olderst, but based on technology things has to add up. And we do see issue in passing the art in the history record via the tendency. These is just what happen in the history as I have seen. IMHO.[/QUOTE]

I have to admit, this does make sense. :slight_smile: Good post Hendrik.

Ps. Your long vacation from the forum was actually just a weekend break :smiley:

32

[QUOTE=BPWT..;1265544]I have to admit, this does make sense. :slight_smile: Good post Hendrik.

Ps. Your long vacation from the forum was actually just a weekend break :D[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

I am going hide out soon!

33

For those who likes to test drive snt gung fat,

Just follow this simplify instruction for daily practice ,

No need to learn any new stuffs.

do it for three weeks and see the result for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt9g-fRt66M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2jNzwPlikg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2vwzemA11k&feature=youtube_gdata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7qznHANJec&feature=youtube_gdata

34

[QUOTE=HybridWarrior;1265533]Hi KPM,

What is “Got” = ______?
And is your “Tun” Sao the same thing as a “Tan” Sao in YPWCK?

Thx.[/QUOTE]

“Got” = Cut or Cutting. So a Cutting Bong or a Cutting Gan. Tun = swallow. A Tun Sao is like a Tan Sao but it moves back and draws in…“swallowing” the force while deflecting rather then going forward like a Tan Sao that sends the force out while deflecting. A Got Bong essentially is a Bong that folds over so it almost looks like an elbow strike, and in certain applications can be. So again, where a regular Bong tends to send out while deflecting, a Got Bong tends to draw in while deflecting. A Got Gan uses a “sickle hand” and a bent elbow as opposed to the straight arm of a regular Gan. Like the other two, it tends to draw in and across while deflecting where the regular Gan sends out while deflecting. All of this is appropriate for reaching that closer distance that Hendrik is talking about and turning the opponent to get the “Pin Sun” or side body positioning. This is all interesting because what Hendrik is saying is that WCK was meant to be an even closer-range fighting method than most Wing Chun people realize! And the short “shock force” or ging is more appropriate at this distance than at arm’s length.

35

[QUOTE=KPM;1265558]“Got” = Cut or Cutting. So a Cutting Bong or a Cutting Gan. Tun = swallow. A Tun Sao is like a Tan Sao but it moves back and draws in…“swallowing” the force while deflecting rather then going forward like a Tan Sao that sends the force out while deflecting. A Got Bong essentially is a Bong that folds over so it almost looks like an elbow strike, and in certain applications can be. So again, where a regular Bong tends to send out while deflecting, a Got Bong tends to draw in while deflecting. A Got Gan uses a “sickle hand” and a bent elbow as opposed to the straight arm of a regular Gan. Like the other two, it tends to draw in and across while deflecting where the regular Gan sends out while deflecting. All of this is appropriate for reaching that closer distance that Hendrik is talking about and turning the opponent to get the “Pin Sun” or side body positioning.

This is all interesting because what Hendrik is saying is that WCK was meant to be an even closer-range fighting method than most Wing Chun people realize! And the short “shock force” or ging is more appropriate at this distance than at arm’s length.[/QUOTE]

1848 Wck are infact interesting .

The idea of short strike art seems to be:

  1. stick to the body , occupied center line and that 40cm of Space the long fist needs to operate.
  2. Continuous to move at stick body range and capture center line, not stay in one location, strike the opponent weak point and keep moving , not engage into play wrestling at close range .

A sample example of these above are as describe in the following YKSLT kuit.

YKSLT Part 2

Ya15
Double palm trusting each other to breakout sudden attack

Ya18
Draw and chop must be done without delay

Ya19
Biu Jee is poison use it at emergency

Ya20
Return ( re capture ) to the center door with Buddha counsel hand technic.

YKSLT Part 3

Yb1
Enemy is strong while I am weak, using seal throat hand

Yb2
Double palm breaking the incoming force in an even way

Yb3
Left and right elbow issue with slant body

Note: part 2 and part 3 of YKSLT actually are arranged differently then ck and bj.
As one can see in the kuit

Part 2.
Ya19, that is the famous Wck "biu Jee poison " saying.
Ya20, is the return to center.
Part 3.
Yb1 , that is the Wck "seal throat hand " saying.

IMHO, The issue is that, it require the type of engine which could support the biu Jee set type. Otherwise, nothing works. It is a totally different paradigm compare with what we think today. Staying in the distance as today to go against a western boxer or a SPM one might not have chance by law of physics . IMHO .

Again, I brought these up here only for the purpose of showing a 1848 Wck data point. Nothing more. Solely for a technical sharing. To show these things exist. My view is , I can’t take responsible if these things were lost. Wcners deserve to know they exist.

I don’t know it all, i am not a grandmaster , not an expert but trying my best to share information. So, do your own research and make your own judgement, never trust what I say, because I can be wrong . Disagreement is always welcome and expected as in any university class room discussion.

36

short-power isn’t necessarily tied to short range… although it often is. but the short-power is an energy generation method that can be used at a variety of ranges, from close body range, to clinch range to short punching range out to extended striking range. arm can be near fully extended at target and then POP! short-power pulse using same w.c. ‘short-power’ mechanics, just at long range. in fact our klps version of saam bai fut ends with relaxed extended fook exploding for last ‘inch’ into short power pulse generation leading into snake wrist & fingers slide back & forth, up & down before transition into next section. besides basic arm, wrist, finger tendon conditioning, teach how to utilize the short-power generation at range without retracting or relying on ‘wind up’ distance. the different sections develop energy and teach us how to use various power generations at different ranges, conditions and angles in relation to centerline. in fact, entire klps ‘12 fists of lj’ set is considered noi gung.

37

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265559]

A sample example of these above are as describe in the following YKSLT kuit.

YKSLT Part 2

Ya15
Double palm trusting each other to breakout sudden attack

Ya18
Draw and chop must be done without delay

Ya19
Biu Jee is poison use it at emergency

Ya20
Return ( re capture ) to the center door with Buddha counsel hand technic.

YKSLT Part 3

Yb1
Enemy is strong while I am weak, using seal throat hand

Yb2
Double palm breaking the incoming force in an even way

Yb3
Left and right elbow issue with slant body

Note: part 2 and part 3 of YKSLT actually are arranged differently then ck and bj.
As one can see in the kuit

Part 2.
Ya19, that is the famous Wck "biu Jee poison " saying.
Ya20, is the return to center.
Part 3.
Yb1 , that is the Wck "seal throat hand " saying.
[/QUOTE]
this is interesting data, hendrick.

as kpm termed it, “shock force” may be a better term to accurately describe than “short-power” which can mislead people to inextricably tie it to range. “short-power” should just describe the distance it takes to generate the power pulse but at a variety of ranges.

38

[QUOTE=KPM;1265558]“Got” = Cut or Cutting. So a Cutting Bong or a Cutting Gan. Tun = swallow. A Tun Sao is like a Tan Sao but it moves back and draws in…“swallowing” the force while deflecting rather then going forward like a Tan Sao that sends the force out while deflecting. A Got Bong essentially is a Bong that folds over so it almost looks like an elbow strike, and in certain applications can be. So again, where a regular Bong tends to send out while deflecting, a Got Bong tends to draw in while deflecting. A Got Gan uses a “sickle hand” and a bent elbow as opposed to the straight arm of a regular Gan. Like the other two, it tends to draw in and across while deflecting where the regular Gan sends out while deflecting. All of this is appropriate for reaching that closer distance that Hendrik is talking about and turning the opponent to get the “Pin Sun” or side body positioning. This is all interesting because what Hendrik is saying is that WCK was meant to be an even closer-range fighting method than most Wing Chun people realize! And the short “shock force” or ging is more appropriate at this distance than at arm’s length.[/QUOTE]

Thanks KPM

39

[QUOTE=Mutant;1265577]short-power isn’t necessarily tied to short range… although it often is. but the short-power is an energy generation method that can be used at a variety of ranges, from close body range, to clinch range to short punching range out to extended striking range. arm can be near fully extended at target and then POP! short-power pulse using same w.c. ‘short-power’ mechanics, just at long range. in fact our klps version of saam bai fut ends with relaxed extended fook exploding for last ‘inch’ into short power pulse generation leading into snake wrist & fingers slide back & forth, up & down before transition into next section. besides basic arm, wrist, finger tendon conditioning, teach how to utilize the short-power generation at range without retracting or relying on ‘wind up’ distance. the different sections develop energy and teach us how to use various power generations at different ranges, conditions and angles in relation to centerline. in fact, entire klps ‘12 fists of lj’ set is considered noi gung.[/QUOTE]

I agree! Anyone with decent WCK should be able to stand in YJKYM with their elbows locked out and palms on their Mook Jong and “rock the dummy” with “shock force” without lifting their hands away from it. But this is not the optimal range. If you think of the “shock force” as being like a wave, the longer the wave has to travel the more it will dissipate to some extent. The closer the better! :wink:

40

I think this is a “taste” of the close body approach that Hendrik has been talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfauOVT6lZ0