I have found that this forum discussed many topics on 8 Step whether is techniques, history, or legitimancy. This has sparked my interest to included 8 step mantis into part my of research.
During my research I came across an article from Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated that talked about Master James Sun’s Eight Step Praying Mantis footwork. It’s a great article on the 8 long and short foot steps. But what peak my interest is the ground mantis form. As I mentioned previously in a different post, I have heard it from a friend of mine. I also read a rumor in the past post of this site that one of Shyun’s former student was taught either part of the ground mantis set or just technique.
From what I have read from other posts on different boards, Chiang Hua Long did not have the ground mantis form. It was mentioned that Wei Hsiao Tang could have created the set from his prior knowledge of ground fighting. Aside from Master James Sun, none from Grandmaster Wei’s other student talked about the ground mantis form.
Can anybody elaborate further on the techniques of this advanced ground mantis form? Did any of Grandmaster Wei’s other student learned the ground mantis set? Did Master James sun passed it on to any of his senior students that the public is aware? Did Shyun do a public demonstration of the set or at least part of the set?
If you can provide historical facts, please also provide the reference to where the facts were obtain. This will be great help to my research.
It is a matter of common knowledge among Meihua Tanglangquan practitioners that, though Jiang Hualong did not create a ground boxing form, Song Zide (mid 1800s-early 1900s), Jiang Hualong’s kungfu brother, created a seventh Zhaiyao that was a combination of Tanglangquan and ground boxing. It is quite rare but did exist before Wei Xiaotang (1901-1984) began teaching Tanglangquan.
Not exactly what you were asking but your appeal for accuracy in sourcing material made me think you would want this information.
Thanks for your historical insight. Yes, you are right. Your information is very useful and I will note it for possible future research on the mantis kung fu styles.
Check out the picture of this ground mantis I found on the Internet. Maybe this species of praying mantis had an inspiration with the development of 8 Step’s ground fighting mantis. This mantis’s low position looks like it can skillfully attack an opponent from below.
Description:
The Ground Mantis is a member of the family Mantidae. These slender insects, 5/8-5 7/8" (15-150 mm) long, have a mobile triangular head, prominent compound eyes, and threadlike antennae. The elongated fore legs are adapted for grasping and holding prey. Long, slender middle and hind legs are used for walking, standing, and leaping.
commoner, You ask a serious question but then post a picture of a mantis and joke that makes most people question your sincerity.
Are you truley interested or just having fun? in any event.
The ground fighting techniques are taught to be used when be forced to fight from a fallen position. They include dropping down and getting underneath your opponents legs as well as springing up when attacked low. I was told the low applications look much the insect itself and uses bobbing and weaving side to side to confuse your opponent then attacks when they are confused. It is not to be confused with actual ground fighting, JJ, Wrestling or anything of that nature. and far from complete. But rather being able to not be rendered helpless if you fall or find yourself on the wrong side of a throw.
It’s like ba duan, it gives you a escape and a last chance if you get into a situaiton where you might lose. With mantis being a complete system it would need every type of fighting scenario to be covered.
With that beign said. when living with james shyung he showed us only one technique of this low mantis. To get under a low center and attack the huYin point.
However he did teach Joel syutton the most out of anyone seeing as how Joel was the only one in the 8 step system who wanted to take our federation into the UFC and make a name for James Shyun and his 8 step. however Joel still needed to cross train with judo, wrestling, BJJ and other mat skills. I dont think the low mantis is enough of a defense but more a last resort to defend when you wind up on the ground.
Whether or not this was made up I dont know. was it taught to Shyun by Wei privatley? I dont know.
Did shyun make it up? I dont know.
will he ever show anyone again? i dont know
does anyone else in the ACMAF know it or have been shown? I doubt it.
the ACMAF is full of a new breed of shrfu’s who have paid exuberants amounts of money to learn what they have and the system has been so watered down and filled with so much filler it is beyond sadneing.
the new generation of teachers dont know the real 8 step Wei’s fighting abilities and formulas or how to fight or even use thier knowledge in actual combat. it looks flashy and is filled to the brim with techniques and made up things like the kicking combinations and various other things but is lacking the core of all kung fu…true combat fighting application!
Yes, I am serious about gaining historical knowledge on the ground mantis form. The picture of the ground mantis was more intended for educational purpose than humorous. I only made the humorous remark to make it interesting. If it offended any mantis practioner, I apologized.
As I research deeper into the mantis system, I also looked at the mantis insect (different species) which was the source of the inspiration for the creation of this effective martial art.
Ouji, Good question. my only explianation would be that shyun is very particular on teaching things outside his filled cirriculum. He holds everthing that is not openly taught in his public outline as advanced.
For years he told us master Wei taught him no weapons forms. But low and behold now he has added weapons forms to his teachings. at one time he taught them as advanced. and made you feel you had to earn his knowledge and it was not given away. when questions arose after his quick deomonstration his replies were always “later later” meaning he did not want to show you or the you the correct way. well after 11 years I had enough of the answer later later. so did 11 of his other long time senior students.
I hope this answers your question. He holds onto his system and information like it is gold. this greed led him to fall prey to all the ridicule and resentment from every other 8 stepper in the us and abroad. this is very unfortunate and sad to say, but he brought this upon himself. wouldnt you be interested in learning the true 8 step from the one and only inheritor from Wei Xiao Tung?
I asked one of Master Chang’s top students a question about traditional 8 step and ground fighting a little wile back. Now mind you he has also asked his instructor (Master Chang), as well as Master Chen in Tawain, and Master Wu in Texas, and sure enough all three of them gave him the same answer he gave me. There is no ground fighting form in traditional 8 step. There are techniques that prevent getting taken to the ground, and he himself couldn’t take any of the three masters to the ground, but there is no actual ground form. If you want ground fighting techniques, you have to look elsewhere, or not get taken to the ground. As for Shyun’s 8’s although there not traditional, it doesn’t mean there not effective for ground fighting. So in that respect, he may have strengthened the one incomplete aspect of Ba Bu.
Part of the problem seems to be that nobody wants to admit to creating sets for some reason. I really don’t understand that mindset. Forms are not the last word on a style but unfortunately they are tied too closely to legitimacy.
You really don’t need ANY traditional sets to be legitimate. If you know the moves and understand the principles you can make up your own sets and drills.
Although look at the crap most guys get when they say they are making up sets or starting their own style, or branch style.
Chinese ground fighting is totally different than grappling. I have groundfighting in some of the sets I’ve learned and they consist of how to remain standing and how to get back up if thrown plus how to attack from the ground.
If I were you I would leave the 8 step and shuyn behind me. You left the system now let it go. You seem to be very neurotic about the whole thing. Let the new guys figure things out for themselves. They will not listen to someone over the net anyway.
I have seen your post that your roomate is a qigong master. You should set down with this person and learn some qigong philosphy and techniques. It will help.
I am not attacking you. You seem like a good guy. In fact if I ever get back up to the big water I would like to meet you.
You just need to make peace brother. This issue is stealing precious moments of your life.
I would like to express my gratitude to all who have contributed their insights. Your insights are valuable to my research. Too bad I could not get any insights from Master Shyun’s side. Their information would have given me a deeper insight to my research.
In fact, I was classmates with his daughter when I was still in Houston (at Bellaire High).
I have seen his 8 step, and when i was in 3rd grade or so I learned some kung fu basics from him in chinese school in chinatown before learning long fist from his long fist brother master george hu. his movements seem a lot “tighter” than shyuns, which i hear a lot of people say looks like 7 star?
mantid1,
thank you for your kind words brother. I know I should let go. I have tried to turn the other cheek several times. I find that many people are interested in shyun and 8 step and I try to set the record straight (personal point of view included) especially in threads such as this that direct questions are asked of 8 step.
This board for me is informational as well as a great avenue to pass time during work. LOL “sorry boss” but it can also be a gateway of contorversy. And I will admitt that I take part in it. However I will always first and foremost try to educate, elaborate and lend advice to those who are seeking it. I guess it is the teacher in me but it’s true my bitterness comes out in certain posts. and to those I apologize but I am entitled to my opionon and I am only human and have much to learn about enlightnement and humbleness.
Yes there is an 8 step ground set do any of the new sifu’s from the sifu program know it I highly doubt it. Dean should know it or did know it at one time. I’ve seen my dai low michael go through ground mantis steps numerous times. and for anyone that trained with master sun personally and wish to know how i know what I know I am from Irving St. I also taught classes at 1405 Noriega. I helped come up with the name kung fu usa.
It’s very nice to meet you. What is your dai low Michael’s last name? I am only familiar with 2 Michael (crazy Mike(don’t remember last name) and Michael James) which these 2 left before the Noriega school. I will verify with Master James Sun as to who learned the ground mantis set. Hopefully I should have an answer within about 2 weeks.
If you seen the ground mantis set a few times, you should be able to describe the first 5 movements of the set. I can describe the next 5 movements of the set.
If you prefer we can discuss this in private. I am curious as to how many of his students learned this set. I think this ground mantis set is an awesome set. This set is very strenuous and if you can master this set, you are in excellent shape.
If you helped him come up with the name kung fu usa, you probably is a very old timer. You also should know he patented “Kung Fu USA” along with his 8 Step Mantis logo. Do you happen to know what year he registered the patent? By the way, I have a copy of his patent.
Also you probably can name at least 5 of his closest students from the early days.
I apologized for the test, but I am just very curious. If we both give enough info, we probably should know each other.
chaotic mantis glad to hear from you perhaps we do know each other the michael I speak of is chinese michael. one of his oldest students who left for another mantis system was mark he left to train with Henry Poo Yee is the one on the cover qui gong magazine do you remember sean? Kung Fu Usa was a concept that came up while the school was located at 1405 Noriega it came before the colored sash system when the belt levels we defined with gold Mantis’s . If you don’t mind I would like to ask you a question perhaps you can answer so I may also verify first what rank was sifu’s father in the army. What does KMT stand for, and what was the color and model of the first Mercedes Sifu got when he still lived in San Francisco. I ask these questions as they are more personal and can help verify those who were close to him in the old days. What was the issue with Adam Hsu?
Question for Sifu Haley:
Do you know Jim he was a studen’t of Dean’s in Buffalo who trained with Sifu when he was stationed in the bay area. this was early 90’s 91-93 approx.
chaotic mantis glad to hear from you perhaps we do know each other the michael I speak of is chinese michael. one of his oldest students who left for another mantis system was mark he left to train with Henry Poo Yee is the one on the cover qui gong magazine do you remember sean? Kung Fu Usa was a concept that came up while the school was located at 1405 Noriega it came before the colored sash system when the belt levels we defined with gold Mantis’s . If you don’t mind I would like to ask you a question perhaps you can answer so I may also verify first what rank was sifu’s father in the army. What does KMT stand for, and what was the color and model of the first Mercedes Sifu got when he still lived in San Francisco. I ask these questions as they are more personal and can help verify those who were close to him in the old days. What was the issue with Adam Hsu?
Question for Sifu Haley:
Do you know Jim he was a studen’t of Dean’s in Buffalo who trained with Sifu when he was stationed in the bay area. this was early 90’s 91-93 approx.
