extrajoseph
very good post mate!
yes what you say is correct about the elements, in the way they can flow and destruct the opponent, by cancelling each others technique as you have mentioned.
cheers
FT
FT
I agree with all that you say (although I think I have much less fighting experience than you do). There is no mould that one should adopt when fighting.
Another way to express my (slight and only intellectual) dissaray is:
The basic exercices and way of doing things in Vietnam is laced with EAstern medical theory. We move in one way when we begin, not so much as immediately be efficient in fighting but in tuning the body: develope flexibility or coordination etc. in this sense forms in vietnam are a bit more flowery, all things considered, when compaired to HK Pak Mei, which teaches you âonlyâ the bare essentials of Pak Mei fighting technic. In VN, from more ornate movement (that may also serve to develop a specific kind of strengh and thus exegerated for instance) Iâve got to derive fighting technics (although this is not true of advanced forms as much.
For example, in monk takes of robe, HK schools make a very short compact movement: upper body moves very slightly to the side. When we are taught it, he actually pivot upper body 90° to side, very ample movement, before exhaling and pushing in front.
the VN way has NO COMBAT value. However, practied enough and sublimed, i.e. reduced to its siplest expression like HK Pak Mei does from the beginning, power generation is tredendous. Just like oing forms low to the ground and trying to be fast. Of course you are not as fast as when you do forms stading up like HK Pak Mei does off the bat. BUT, once you start practice standing up after low training we all know the benefits.
Everything in VN Pei Mei is like that: the cost is straying away from direct combat application and thus running the risk of getting lost in my opinion. But it provides very good development for body and mind.
(One side explanation for this given to me was that staying closed and applying TTFC oen develops health problems in chest and internal organs. I hav noticed this to some extent as well).
FT: You were told of 3 students, one of which the originator of YKM if I understand correctly. Iâm certain there were not 2 who went to VN! So probably the right person. (although there was a mysterious other practioner who died at 110 yrs old chinese in VN who was called âRed Riverâ or âLava of Volcanoâ and who did NOT learn from CLC)
When did YKM learn from CLC, when did he leave him to go his own way? Perhaps we can corroborate dates.
EAZ
well the yau kung mun grandmaster started the system in 1924, so i guess he was way before that. he was a sifu in bak mei under clc for many years and was considered one of his best disciples at that time. He opened up the âYuet Sing Sports Clubâ in canton around 1930âŠis this the pearl river martial arts club in english? yuet sing?
yum cha may have some more info on this too?
All i know is our grandmaster was one of the old school of clc, the 1st generation of students that was taught with the hakka people i was told!!
hope this helps
FT:)
ONE WENT TO VIETNAM ONLY I BELIEVE!
EAZ,
Now that I have done some research, I feel confident enough to answer your origin questions for this thread:
a) Is it fair to say that 90% of Southern styles such as those just mentioned come from this Southern Shaolin tradition?
A: Yes, a large percentage of the southern styles do come under the influence of the Five Animals theory of the Shaolin tradition, each been influenced to varying degree depending on its evolution and development. It seems to me from the feedback we have in this forum, only Choy Lee Fut took on board all the animals with individual form for each animal as well as the Ng Ying Kuen. CLF also expanded the Five Animals (Ng Ying) to the Ten Animals (Sup Ying) thus completed the numerology of 10 as the number of fulfilment of a complete cycle.
b) If yes, did the theory of 5 animals have any bearing on their creation? (Apparently it did in SOME cases)?
A: I am not familiar with other styles, but for CLF, the Ng Kuen or Five Fists (Animals) of Bak Yuk-Fung do formed the core of its system, with the advanced level forms being over 90% related to the animals.
c) How come most schools do not integrate knowledge/theory of all 5 animals today, instead just super specialising in 1-2 types of techniques, thus perhaps missing out on some things?
A: As knowledge filtered down from the Shaolin Temple, the Five Animals tradition got weaken or broken up due to persecution, time constrains, secrecy, tyranny of distance, branch out of a lineage and many other reasons. May be some chose to become specialised and some lost its knowledge along the way, we can never know for sure. The founder of CLF, Chan Heung, had studied for more than 20 years with 3 teachers from the Shaolin Temple lineage before he set up his own system. He spent more than 10 years with the Shaolin Monk Choy Fook in Law-Fo Shan alone, thus enabling the Five Animals tradition to survive intact and integrated fully into the system.
Please donât get the idea that I think CLF is more superior to other southern styles, what I am trying to say is the tradition of the Five Animals has definitely remained intact in our system that is all.
JosephX
Re: EAZ
Originally posted by fiercest tiger
[B]well the yau kung mun grandmaster started the system in 1924, so i guess he was way before that. he was a sifu in bak mei under clc for many years and was considered one of his best disciples at that time. He opened up the âYuet Sing Sports Clubâ in canton around 1930âŠis this the pearl river martial arts club in english? yuet sing?
yum cha may have some more info on this too?
All i know is our grandmaster was one of the old school of clc, the 1st generation of students that was taught with the hakka people i was told!!
[/B]
Aha ! My understanding is that Tang HuĂ© bac had a school open âfor many years before wwIIâ. He was a practioner of Choi Lee Fut before getting his head kicked in my CLC and then becoming his student. In vietnam, he is widely regarded as one fo the most dangerous people of his generation, hands down.
Yum Cha: your imput would be great here.
Re: EAZ,
Originally posted by extrajoseph
A: As knowledge filtered down from the Shaolin Temple, the Five Animals tradition got weaken or broken up due to persecution, time constrains, secrecy, tyranny of distance, branch out of a lineage and many other reasons. May be some chose to become specialised and some lost its knowledge along the way, we can never know for sure.
I donât know how you researched this, but I am heartened that you arrive at the same conclusion as I have.
Vietnam, which was for a long time a kind of backwater province of China, seems to have been a bit frozen in time, and thus kept some of this system/world view alive in martail arts.
Great, thanks for your help. If you care to post a bit about your sources, please go ahead.
EAZ
a question for FT
Do you know in what province CLC and YKM studied together?
I have heard soemone say that that SPM, PM and Dragon were developed at the same time within spitting distance of one another (just an expression of courseâŠ) and that this explains the similarities of practice.
HOWEVER,
this is the case for Dragon style and HK PM which really have a lot of direct correspondance (thanks for demo this weekend Nerval)
It is not the case for Guigzhou PM (from what I gather) or of VN PM which, while sharing many things are more heterogeneous.
So by knowing where YKM studied, presumably with THB (the guy who went to VN), we can see if this was before the criss crossing between DRagon SPM and HK PM styles and also in another place geographically.
quote below from a long forgotten thread that was kindly forwarded to me:
" Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hang[ing] out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the âWai Yeungâ village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlasâs / internet) and population size.
Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.
It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)
LYK and CLC were known as âthe Two Tigers of East Riverâ but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the âHai Fungâ Monk (who IKF names as âHuang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named âLiang Hua Su Renâ who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen)â
Well�
Hi Yum Cha
"Mantis,
Iâm told our branch has a bit more Dragon Style in it than other lineages.
Sifu said he used to drink tea with Sifu Chau Fook in HK before he died. I assume that means some friendship. "
Ah⊠Speaking of âYum Chaâ with Sifu, that is one of the best experiences that all CMAists would cherrish. I do miss that a lot. There was a friendship between our Sifus, that wonderful. 
"In reference to your comments and to some of the other members of the board. Would you agree that the 5 elements theory and how they can be applied to fighting are a fishing pole, as opposed to fish?
We are talking about âthe imortalsâ still, yes? "
I think you have made one of the finest metaphors in Chinese martial arts. LOLâŠ
Have you heard of the store about how King Wen of Chau dynasty (one of the developer of I Ching) met his Prime Minister/teacher Keung Tai Kung. That is the story of Tai Kung Dui Yu (the Grand Duke fishing).
Tai Kung, who was also an immortal, used a fishing pole that had no hooks. People laughed at him. Some suggested that he should use fishing pole with hooks if he ever wanted to catch fish. He simply just smiled and said âI am not fishing for fish (food ), I am fishing for Emperors and nobles (country/his ideal or Tao).â The moral of the story?Eat to live donât live to eat.
We certainly can apply the 5 Elements directly into KF. The Five Animals are horizontal meaning their parallel to the human animal. That makes it more apparent and easy to adapt. 5 Elements are vertical which means it is hidden (as techniques, tactic, strategies, etc) and you will have to go deeper. When you are capable of both horizontal and vertical thinking, you are in fact capable of 3 dimensional thinking (abstract thoughts) which is one of the training objectives of the I Ching. Martial arts is about educating an indiviual physically, mental and spiritually. That Bak Meiâs curriculum has covered well.
It would seem that there are lots of interest in the I Ching and 5 Elements theories. May be we should open a thread on them. Since we have pretty much covered the Five Animals, may be it is a good idea to cover the 5 Elements on a different thread.
Mantis108
Hi Cherrypraxis
May be this thread will help you to begin your search:
"mantis108,
Though Iâve heard of the I-Ching referenced numerous times, Iâm not quite sure what it is except that it is âthe book of changesâ that people use for philosophical treatises and/or soothsaying. Iâve just started Ba Gua and did some preliminary research covering the superficial basicsâŠi.e. that Ba Guaâs movements are actually based on the I-Ching. "
Chinese martial arts are fascinating because they are unique in applying/expressing Chinese worldview in infinite number of ways. The best study of Chinese worldview would be from a main source the I Ching (Classics or Books of Change). Divination (soothsaying) is only an area of study and is a very small part of this book although alot of people took the liking to divination because of the empowering experience that it gives. But that is just a small vehicle.
"Actually, my fascination with martial arts stems from the âesotericâ since my introduction to it a few years back appeared to be on that ground. It would be fantastic if you opened a new thread on I-Ching theory since it is probably misplaced in this thread. From reading a number of threads, however, it seems that most people are more keen on application rather than theory and so I fear a miscommunication of sorts. Also, can you recommend a translation? Thanks⊠"
If you are interested, I certainly will be glad to post something about it.
Mantis108
âWhen you are capable of both horizontal and vertical thinking, you are in fact capable of 3 dimensional thinking (abstract thoughts) which is one of the training objectives of the I Ching.â
Mantis 108,
I would have thought both horizontal and vertical thinking are 2-dimensional abstract thoughts, to make it 3-dimensional (come alive) we need to consider the practical applications. When we have the inputs from the x, y and z-axis we will know where we stand (wisdom).
It is not a criticism, it is a clarafication. I really enjoyed your posting, I just like to highlight the importance of integrating theory with practice and abstract thoughts with real action, otherwise the I Ching is just another book.
JosephX
EAZ
Hi EAZ,
Nice to hear you share so many of the same interpretations as we do, there are many brothers here.
Perhaps you donât remember, but this discussion on the movement to Vietnam was one of the first threads we shared. I only know what my 2 Sifuâs said, and I was able to transliterate. You seem to believe there was an earlier disciple of PM than the one I mention, and I have taken that into my thinking, but without any futher information as yet.
CLC had three students as a young man, before his sons were of age. Here are my notes, in all their lingual confusion:
-
Har Hon Hung
-
Yau Yen Wah (Malaysia) (possibly Yau Yan Ngoh?)
-
Cheng Kwan Hop or Chun Wai Bok (VIETNAM) ?
(Tang Khai Minh called Tang Hue Bac?) a. Tang Hué Bac died at a very young age, 52 in 1956
3.1 Diep Quoc Luong (Tai Chuc Cam)
3.1.1 Tran Ngoc Dinh (Italian Connection)
Master Dang (possibly Tang Khai Minh above?)
3.1 Master Diep Quoc Luong (Tai Chuc Cam?)
(possibly Yep Kwock Leung who taught Chau Phu?)
3.2 Chau Phu (Australia)
This session of CLCâs life took place in Guangzhou, before they fled to HK after the war under pressure from the Reg Guard, who looked upon Kung Fu as counter-revolutionary.
That is why, I assume, that VN Pak Mei and Guangzhou Pak Mei are more alike. It was learned from a young CLC.
Sifu says, as a young man you start low stances, as you get older you rise." This makes obvious sense, but perhaps the lesson runs deeper.
The reason both FT and I Har Hon Hung, but not the same style is that when my Si Gung, Liang Sui Hoy studed from HHH, he was likewise a younger man and had yet to move into the later studies he made i.e. YKM. Liang Sui Hoy also spent time with CLC and LYG as well.
I think most people know this, but Lam Yew Gwai and Cheung Lai Cheun were cousins (or related in one way or another) and learned their art together as they grew up. Dragon Style and Pak Mei still share the bond, right Mantis?
Thanks Joseph!
Congratulations, excellent thread
Mantis,
thanks for the link to the i-ching/tao te ching thread. i skimmed through it a bit. itâs been a long day and iâm getting cross-eyed from reading! by all means, start a new thread if it isnât too bothersome. on the other hand, i donât know how many other people would be interested in it.
-cherrypraxis
Yum Tcha
Yes I do remember and appreciate that early thread, thank you for reminding me though!
I agree with everything that you say. I have asked a training brother in Vietnam to verify certain things regarding Cheng Kwan Hop or Chun Wai Bok, just to make sure. I have about 5 pictures of him at different ages and if he is 52 on the last page he looks about 70 (usually the reverse with AsiansâŠ). He may of had some kind of withering desease.
Also: in one picture I have of him sitting with 50 students and a banner overhead, with French official writing on the wall (therefore pre-54), he does not look as old as int he latter pictures I have of him.
To have so many students, he probably arrived in VN a while before 1949. You say he died at age 52. Is yur source for this infomation Andy or do you have another source as well?
(Our new and improved web site should be online in a couple of days, with pictures).
Well I must say that I have learnt some good things here on this forum.
EAZ
Do you know andy sifu of wah nam? if you like i can ask him a question as he is a close friend or mine and kung fu brother!
Andy SIFUâS bak mei is very good, and he is a walking history book on bak mei. He has many forms you may never know of or ever see on this art!
He is BAK MEI..LOL:D
Re: EAZ
Originally posted by fiercest tiger
[B]Do you know andy sifu of wah nam? if you like i can ask him a question as he is a close friend or mine and kung fu brother!
Andy SIFUâS bak mei is very good, and he is a walking history book on bak mei. He has many forms you may never know of or ever see on this art!
He is BAK MEI..LOL:D [/B]
Sure that would be nice ! I think we exchanged thoughts once briefly on this subject but any additional information would be priceless (hence free
If memory serves, he is both student of Tai Chek Cam and of Cheung Bin Lam lineages. However I have never seen his practice and thus do not know if he privileges one manner of Pei Mei or another.
I also think he told me that 5 animals/elements not a part of his training. As 5 animals/elements common in many if not most chinese styles practiced in Vietnam, I thought maybe he was more a CBL kind of guy.
Please do ask him though. (I wonder once again though if Yum CHa 's information comes from Andy or from another source).
Thanks,
EAZ
eaz
Yum Cha has never met andy sifu!
He has stayed underground for a long time!
Sifu Andy
Yes EAZ, most of my info on the Viet lineage comes from Andy, but there is also another vietnamese site (linked on my website) and I have snippets from other comments as well - thus the multiple languages/pronunciations of the names I forwarded.
FT, I may have met Andy, Iâm not sure. Many years ago (10?) we used to get together with Chau Phu a couple of times a year and he may have been amongst the students then, I donât know. Back in the days of the NSWCMA.
We did a few big lion dances together, and some Dragon too. Darling Harbour, and the opening of the initial stages of Homebush Bay. They visited us at the temple a couple of times too.
I would like to meet him, as he comes well recommended by you, but the circumstances have yet to present themselves.
yum cha
Andy Sifu was behind all the scenes if i recall, he wasnt in the nswcma. He isnt under sifu chow anymore but i dont think he would have met you yet, may have seen you only!
ill ask him if he has met you next time we chat!
FT