5 animals and Southern Styles

[diego]

5Animal is a very interesting topic for me

when i was just a shorty, i ran with a crew, and when i look back on our deviance, thier seemed to be standard cliche’s in our streetfighting style, wich was really an acumalation of tricks, such as using your locker lock as a knuckleduster, and that it seems thier was this whole subculture of jailboxing, Now if this makes sence, then on to my thought on the 5animal, i have this working theory, just like the crews from my youth, within the oldschool kf circles, most likly thier was universal consistency just like two friends can box in a park with professional rules&structure, within the crews in china, they prolly had thier tysons, and ali’s…and the kids would gongsau under this similar basis, thinking they were cool. My curiosity in this subject surrounds the probable fact most of our most killer techniques was probably tricks of the trade, for the masses…, Now i’m looking at this from a western boxer history&culture perspective, were we usually stand on our two and punch you out, were if you look at vagabond styles, our most degnified technique is childsplay compared to thier eyemisplacers&neck nibbles.

http://wingchunkuen.com/journal/features/ritchie_opera.shtml
If you read pt.2 of this link it gets into its probable the 5elder legends were just that, to buil moral. Now in my word’s maybe this has something to do with the south famous styles having these influences, maybe these were ali muhamed dance like a butterfly sting like a bee influences upon the masses; HEHE…THEY JUST DID’NT HAVE T.V.

[EAZ]

Extra joseph to my rescue !

(Thanks all again for responding).

Mantis108: thank you for making a VERY important clarification of two representations of 5 elements:
a) the North South East West organs associated etc) which is lifted almost verbatim from Yi King commentaries (however the ealiest confirmed date of written version of commentaries in 17th century, although I agree probably much older).

(I am aware of cultivation of prenatal post natal chi and its relation to martial arts but I never was taught/made the link with 4 directions diagram above as you have )

b) the circle theory (cycle of creation and destruction), which you have informed me is from Yuen dynasty . I did not know this, I thought that it was mixed into a) from the beginning.

Both a) and b) are totally integrated in what MANTIS108 calls holistic vision of CHinese: medecine, astrology, meteology, everything.

Clearly animal theory was invented AFTER a) or b), and in contexte of martial arts.

Up until there we should all agree here, n’est ce pas?

So then some say animal theory

• ARE NOT linked to elements (i.e. most of you)
• ARE linked to elements theory (pretty much just me, boy it’s getting cold around here)

Those who say ARE NOT, say that yes 5 animals is part of SOuthern styles and Pei Mei in particular: the link is on moral/psychological/essence level. I have been taught this as well.

To stay on thread, should I surmise that Southern schools missing out on this interpretation are lacking some heritage from SHaolin tradition?

Those who say ARE (me basically), say that there is also another extremely important dimension to animals theory. That, descending from the lofty intellectual heights of taoist esoteric thought, animal theory has a real CONCRET meaning in practice of SOuthern Kung Fu martial arts issueing from SHaolin tradition

Originally posted by extrajoseph
[B]Guohuen,

You said earlier:
“Tiger-metal, leopard-fire, dragon-water, snake-earth and crane-wood.”

And you also said now:
“I learned the animals and the elements as the destruction cycle. Fire destroys metal, metal destroys wood, wood destroys earth, earth destroys water and water destroys fire.”

Does that mean leopard destroys tiger, tiger destroys crane, crane destroys snake, snake, destroys dragon and dragon destroys leopard? In a physical or metaphysical sense or both?

Why the destruction cycle and not the nourishing cycle? I thought the Ng Ying Kuen is meant to cultivate (and not to destroy) the shen (dragon), the bone (tiger), the strength (leopard), the chi (snake) and the jing (crane).
[/B]

Ahhh (relief)… ExtraJoseph, you hit the nail onthe head!

Not only is destruction and creation cycle part and parcel of martial arts theory (here Fierce Tiger would agree), but also translated through theory of 5 animals (FT does not agree).

So in the “ARE” camp, extrajoseph has unwittingly taken a step to my side (hope you don’t mind extrajoseph). The PRINCIPLES OF MOVEMENT (by movement I include legs, arms body and strikes of all types) using the “ARE NOT” camp’s definition as a base (i.e. Dragon powerful, snake subtile, Tiger direct courageous bones, etc… much more detailed than this), can be translated into 5 elements principle of creation and destruction.

And so when faced with Tiger attack(courage, ferocious linear direct strike, type of trajectory (i.e. initial point of departure - trajectoy - point of impact) is loose then smash type impact etc… again way too long to describe here and besides part of our training…, the optimal response in terms of animals is…

Of course, there are three caveates to this theory:

1. it assumes that each person has same initial level of energy (who cares how you define it).
2. Your response to to an attack “of energy level 4”, is a response of at least “4” or else you will fail. (This means that I may know that I’ve got to dodge Mike Tyson’s strike, but I am not quick enough and thus will be spoon fed for the rest of my life)
3. no movement or strike is purely one animal and in fact each animal can contain 4 others etc… fractal.

The wonderful thing is that the type of strike/movement (elastic penetrating, impact, push/pull,) is DIRECTLY LINKED to Eastern medical theory to stimulate certain organs etc, or certain types chi cultivation (don’t know enough about this though).

The whole reason why Pak Mei (Pei Mei) emphesises Tiger and Leopard (while of course still displaying oher three at times) is that basic technics tiger step leopard penetrating angle punch etc…(not just spirit of movement etc alhtough extremely important as well) ARE IN LINE with this theory.

But I have gone way over the line of what I can discuss on hte forum.

So back to my thread:

If and only if the way I was taught is true, and if it was not invented recently but in fact is part of very old Shaolin tradition, how come only schools in vietnam and maybe some Hung Gar schools apparently have something like this?

(Hope someone has read to the end of this post as I may not have been able to convey my thoughts properly while working simultaneously on Excel sheet at work.)

Last word to ExtraJoseph: Ng Ying Kuen, I was taught, is thus EXACTLY what you say.
EAZ

[mantis108]

Hi Yum Cha

"Thanks Mantis, you have given me many puzzle pieces where I had only logical conclusions, and it makes an interesting picture. I am in your debt. "

You are most welcome and I am glad to be of help. All I can say is theories must be applicable through our practice otherwise it is just intellectual understanding which is good to a certain extend (acadamic pursuits) but that’s not much use for a Kung Fu-er.

“I won’t say I understand it all, but there is understanding to seek, and perhaps it will come to me.”

The information that I have presented are a basketful of things broiled down to those lines. There are many sources of these things so it will take time to sort them out. I am glad that you are seeking and “IT” sure will come to you.

“My Sifu Leung Yuk Seng was a student of Leung Sui Hoy (no relationship). I know my Sifu knew your Sifu Chau Fook well, he has mentioned him several times. There is more on our website, see my profile.”

Ah, Sifu Leung have heard of or met with my Sifu? That’s great. Please send my regards to him. Thanks. Canton used to be one of the favorite places of Sifu. He always encouraged us to travel with him to visit different places and Kung Fu relatives and friends. I am considering following his foot steps. Anyway, it is a pleasure to meet you.

Mantis108

[Daughda]

More Please!
I am a very new student of Five family / Five Animal (Ark Yuey Wong’s art) and am enjoying this post muchly.
Any one else here a Ng Ga Kin student?

Thanks and keep them coming!

[mantis108]

HI Josephx

"Earlier you said:
“Tiger is tyrannous in its “Lik” the strength.”

I thought Leopard trains the Lik or strength and Tiger the Gwak or Bone. Have I missing something here? You also used the word Sai for Gwak, do they mean the same thing? "

First and foremost, tiger and leopard are both big cats. There are very similar and yet very different. Tigers are larger and heavier than leopard. So they are physically stronger - period. That’s why tiger represents strength. Also Chinese believe that strength (lik) comes strong bones. When cutting up a tiger you have big bones but not much meat; hence, the believe that it is the bones that gives tigers their strength. Tiger bones as medicine is also based on this believe. Nowadays we have more understanding about anatomy, we know that it is muscloskeletal not just skeletal or musclar. In older Chinese martial arts systems, this believe that strength is developed through strong bone is articulated as a sound body structure. We see this in many of the southern arts that body mechanics (well tuned structural alignments with a well developed base of support) is key.

Sai is a very hard concept to explain. It is more or less like the military dispositions. It changes all the time. Leopard being a lighter more agile animal than the tiger, it can not affort to confront aggressor such a tiger to protect it’s food or territories. So it hunts and it plays hide and seek (take food up to trees where the tiger might have problem to reach). It’s muscloskeletal structure is built with multi-tasking in mind. It has to be able to perform striking, grappling, and hauling all with the same set of muscloskeletal system.

In summary, Tiger can use simple attack strikes fast and furious because it has the advantage of size and strength. Leopard relies more on combinations attack agile yet determined because it is built to be multi-tasking.

If you can understand the nature of these animal and reference it with which your Sifu told you, I think you will see the answer clearly.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi Eaz

“Mantis108: thank you for making a VERY important clarification of two representations of 5 elements:”

You are most welcome and I am glad that you are aware of importance between the 2 representations. It would make the discussion easier.

"a) the North South East West organs associated etc) which is lifted almost verbatim from Yi King commentaries (however the ealiest confirmed date of written version of commentaries in 17th century, although I agree probably much older). "

We have to bare in mind that there are 2 major schools in I Ching Study - Confucian and Taoist. Majority (80 % plus) of the work on I Ching are from the Confucian schools.

“(I am aware of cultivation of prenatal post natal chi and its relation to martial arts but I never was taught/made the link with 4 directions diagram above as you have )”

That’s what have been “hidden” within the Taoist traditions. It is no secret and it has been there for all time but people choice to ignore it. That’s all. In other words, cultivation of Qi is theory based (of highly deliberate thoughts) not some oldwives tales. Modern physics would have not problem with it but classical (Newton who was a Christian) Physics has a hard time to reconcile with it.

“b) the circle theory (cycle of creation and destruction), which you have informed me is from Yuen dynasty . I did not know this, I thought that it was mixed into a) from the beginning.”

The Crossed pattern dated back or rather claimed to be as far as Fu Hsi period(BCE 2852 - 2728). It is accepted and used mostly by Confucians. So even in a collective work on the I Ching ordered by one of the Yuen Emporers (CE 1206 - 1368), there was no mentioning of the star/circular pattern. That could means 2 things a) it had not been invented b) it is not popular among the confucian “scholars” and we have to check see if the Taoists had it back then . My view of the star/circular pattern is invented or popular during Yuen, Ming, Ching (CE 1206 onwards) is that China started to have outside influence from the west (Marco Polo’s visit and the Christian Missonary that came after). They brought a long western technology, science, etc… We then see a paradigm shift in Astrology, divination techniques, etc… All this because the fundamental worldview of the Chinese experienced a change induced by western thoughts and worldview. You will note that the star/circular pattern groups the elements in kind and has a “invisible hand” pushing it (i.e. God) feel to it (the creative cycle) . The traditional mathematic underpinning is totally gone. And so is the interaction. Anyway, thought you might want to check this avenue out.

“Both a) and b) are totally integrated in what MANTIS108 calls holistic vision of CHinese: medecine, astrology, meteology, everything.”

In a sense, they compliment each other. But yes it is holistic and organic when it comes to Chinese worldview.

"Clearly animal theory was invented AFTER a) or b), and in contexte of martial arts. "

Up until there we should all agree here, n’est ce pas? "

Agreed.

"So then some say animal theory

• ARE NOT linked to elements (i.e. most of you)
• ARE linked to elements theory (pretty much just me, boy it’s getting cold around here)

Those who say ARE NOT, say that yes 5 animals is part of SOuthern styles and Pei Mei in particular: the link is on moral/psychological/essence level. I have been taught this as well."

I think I will need to open another thread to clarify this if you are interested. It would be somewhat off the topic.

"To stay on thread, should I surmise that Southern schools missing out on this interpretation are lacking some heritage from SHaolin tradition? "

Not missing out but it was developed under a different set of circumstances.

“Those who say ARE (me basically), say that there is also another extremely important dimension to animals theory. That, descending from the lofty intellectual heights of taoist esoteric thought, animal theory has a real CONCRET meaning in practice of SOuthern Kung Fu martial arts issueing from SHaolin tradition”

There is indeed another dimension to Shaolin animals theory independent of Taoist thoughts. It is more akin to Hindu tradition ie Yoga.

"quote:

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Guohuen,

You said earlier:
“Tiger-metal, leopard-fire, dragon-water, snake-earth and crane-wood.”

And you also said now:
“I learned the animals and the elements as the destruction cycle. Fire destroys metal, metal destroys wood, wood destroys earth, earth destroys water and water destroys fire.”

Does that mean leopard destroys tiger, tiger destroys crane, crane destroys snake, snake, destroys dragon and dragon destroys leopard? In a physical or metaphysical sense or both?

Why the destruction cycle and not the nourishing cycle? I thought the Ng Ying Kuen is meant to cultivate (and not to destroy) the shen (dragon), the bone (tiger), the strength (leopard), the chi (snake) and the jing (crane).

---

Ahhh (relief)… ExtraJoseph, you hit the nail onthe head! "

I will skip this, otherwise it will be a very long discussion.

"Not only is destruction and creation cycle part and parcel of martial arts theory (here Fierce Tiger would agree), but also translated through theory of 5 animals (FT does not agree). "

I think I know what you are getting at, but I will not comment on it yet.

"So in the “ARE” camp, extrajoseph has unwittingly taken a step to my side (hope you don’t mind extrajoseph). The PRINCIPLES OF MOVEMENT (by movement I include legs, arms body and strikes of all types) using the “ARE NOT” camp’s definition as a base (i.e. Dragon powerful, snake subtile, Tiger direct courageous bones, etc… much more detailed than this), can be translated into 5 elements principle of creation and destruction.

And so when faced with Tiger attack(courage, ferocious linear direct strike, type of trajectory (i.e. initial point of departure - trajectoy - point of impact) is loose then smash type impact etc… again way too long to describe here and besides part of our training…, the optimal response in terms of animals is… "

2 words - too formulaic. Sorry, but I wish it is that simple.

"Of course, there are three caveates to this theory:

1. it assumes that each person has same initial level of energy (who cares how you define it).
2. Your response to to an attack “of energy level 4”, is a response of at least “4” or else you will fail. (This means that I may know that I’ve got to dodge Mike Tyson’s strike, but I am not quick enough and thus will be spoon fed for the rest of my life)
3. no movement or strike is purely one animal and in fact each animal can contain 4 others etc… fractal."

3 supported my above comment.

"The wonderful thing is that the type of strike/movement (elastic penetrating, impact, push/pull,) is DIRECTLY LINKED to Eastern medical theory to stimulate certain organs etc, or certain types chi cultivation (don’t know enough about this though).

The whole reason why Pak Mei (Pei Mei) emphesises Tiger and Leopard (while of course still displaying oher three at times) is that basic technics tiger step leopard penetrating angle punch etc…(not just spirit of movement etc alhtough extremely important as well) ARE IN LINE with this theory.

But I have gone way over the line of what I can discuss on hte forum. "

I think you are on to something and is definitely worth exploring.

"So back to my thread:

If and only if the way I was taught is true, and if it was not invented recently but in fact is part of very old Shaolin tradition, how come only schools in vietnam and maybe some Hung Gar schools apparently have something like this? "

Secrecy and limited communication that strangle the arts.

I think you have made some interesting points. Great post.

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

“When cutting up a tiger you have big bones but not much meat; hence, the believe that it is the bones that gives tigers their strength. Tiger bones as medicine is also based on this believe.”

“Leopard being a lighter more agile animal than the tiger, it can not afford to confront aggressor such a tiger to protect its food or territories. So it hunts and it plays hide and seek (take food up to trees where the tiger might have problem to reach). Its musculoskeletal structure is built with multi-tasking in mind. It has to be able to perform striking, grappling, and hauling all with the same set of musculoskeletal system.”

From what Mantis 108 said above, the classic was right; Tiger trains the Gwak or Bone – meaning that if we imitate the behaviour of a tiger, we will cultivate a strong set of structure or “bones”. Leopard trains the Lik or Strength – meaning that if we imitate the behaviour of a leopard, we will improve our strength or the ability to do things quickly. Tiger is about stability and structure and leopard is about movement and agility. The idea of Yin and Yang again and that makes sense for me.

Since Chinese thoughts are based on Ying and Yang and physical phenomenon always have an “inner” and an "outer"component, so for me Tiger and Leopard represented the tangible or the physical (the outer) while the Dragon (which trains the Shen or Spirit) and the Crane (which trains the Jing or Essence) represented the intangible or the metaphysical (the inner) part of Shaolin Kung Fu, with the Snake (which trains the Chi) being the link between the “form” and the “formless”.

Well it still makes sense for me with or without the Five Elements. Maybe that is what the Shaolin Ng Ying Kuen is all about - trianing our Jing, Chi, Shen and Sun (body), Sou (hands), Fa (methods). We must not try to read too much into it.

[fiercest_tiger]

Mantis 108

That was well said and written my brother!

[EAZ]

agreed, good posts.

[cherrypraxis]

EAZ:

Je peux lire tes messages et echange avec CrimsonPhoenix (Salut Crimson, mon ami, si tu vois cela!) dans l’autre forum en francais. Mais, il m’a pris beaucoup de temps a finir parce que j’apprends francais depuis cinq mois seulement. Alors, escuses-moi mon francais pauvre, s’il te plait. J’apprends la langue et la culture encore. Aussi, l’ordinateur j’utilise maintenant n’a pas Microsoft Word. Je ne peux pas mettre les accents. Je suis desolee pour boucher ta langue!

J’ai peur quand j’entends le mot “authentique” parce qu’il a une connotation absolue. Je crois que ce chose–le mot “authentique”–n’est pas exister. Le mot meme a une dimension pudique. Ce n’est pas bon pour quelqu’un comme moi qui n’aime pas les choses pudiques. Mais, je sais que tout peut avoir une dimension pudique. Comme ce que nous Anglais ou Americains dittent, “It’s a double-edged sword.”

Je viens de quitter mon ecole de Hung Gar parce que le sifu est une personne mauvaise. C’est une longue histoire…
Mais, je serai prendre Ba Gua bientot…en fait, je commence ce soir…

---

Sorry all, I got sidetracked… =)

This post doesn’t necessarily pertain to the thread but seeing that most people who have posted are learned men, this might be of interest…

I only have very little exposure to Hung Gar and to Chinese arts in general but many of the concepts are familiar to me through other avenues…myths, ancient cultures and philosophy. It seems that the number 5 is a number that contains both yin and yang elements from what I gather (reading this forum). What immediately came to mind is that prior to and during the Western Renaissance, the number 5 is a number that contains both Man and Woman, namely, the numbers 2 and 3…is this coincidental? I’m thinking not though it is apparent that Western civilizations as we know them today are slowly arriving at a Golden Age that those of the Ancient Worlds have long ago discovered.

Because of this parallel conceptual framework, it seems more than likely, from what I’ve learned before and what I’m learning now, that, as EAZ and a few others suggest, the five elements and the five animals are related though my limited knowledge cannot prove or even show any conclusive argument regarding this matter.

Also, in one of the threads pertaining to Internal Martial Arts, the one dealing with sex and chi, there is another parallel conceptual framework that goes beyond cultural boundaries. The argument posed is that to keep chi in, one must avoid sexual intercouse (for males, of course). In a leap of insight, I recalled the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh which predates almost any “Western” text, one of the main characters, Enkidu, a beast-man as strong as the gods themselves, lost all his strength and energy upon copulating with a woman. Sounds familiar with taoist practices, n’est-ce pas?

Sorry, folks…I couldn’t help myself in posting such off-topic thoughts…

[mantis108]

Thank you all.

Hi Fiercest Tiger & Eaz,

Thank you very much , my friends.

Hi JosephX,

I think you have got it.

Hi Cherrypraxis,

In the study of I Ching, the number system 0 to 10 (some paid attention up to 9) was covered. In a way, it is similar to the ancient Greek (they love Math/Goemetry with their philosophies as well) . I Ching is also often used to explain the Qi phenomena. But then you are getting into highly esoteric Taoist stuff. There is a correlation ( a very strong one) between spiritually and sexuality in the human realm. That in a way is Karma, not much most people can do about it. In Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, there are methods to harness the sexual energy. Being celibate is the primary requisite (I have personally test it out). There are theories explicable with the I Ching. But it will be off topic here. So may be some other thread is more appropiate. BTW, human brains are wired the same way. It is the different circumstances in life that changes everything. It is not the color of the skin ( western people or eastern people) but the content (brain/internal & education/external) of the “character” (person). A lot of time is pride and prejudice that stop us from learning. Sorry about the rant, you have made some good points in your posts.

Mantis108

[extrajoseph]

Cherrypraxis,

To the Chinese, number 5 represents the agent for the completion of the transformation of Chi in nature. That is as you said it, the coming together of the Yin and Yang (Being French you said Man and Woman. I like it better, it gives the whole thing an extra dimension).

If you study the Luoshu Diagram (the 3 X 3 Magic Square) where all the numbers added up to 15, you will see 5 in the middle linked up all other pairs making up to 10. Since 10 represented the completion of a full cycle and 5 links them all up, 5 is the agent for fulfilment.

I think that is why we have the Five-Animal Form (Ng Ying Kuen) and Ten-Animal Kuen (Sup Ying Kuen) in Choy Lee Fut and not some other numbers. Numerically, these two forms represents the bring together of all the other forms.

JosephX

[guohuen]

Joseph X. Please explain the luoshu diagram. This is facinating.
T.M.

[Yum_Cha]

Animals and elements

EAZ,

As another piece of your puzzle, our Sifu says our Pak Mei is not Shaolin. He is definate about that. Less definate about being buddhist though, lots of mixing he says.

We do not have the 5 Animals teaching, per se, from him, but we do have discussions about Tiger and Leopard, and some of us do the pattern Ng Ying Kuen.

Our Animals:

Tiger, fierce and strong, moves straight in and kills. Leopard, more elusive, more lateral movement and grabbing, tangling to disable and kill. More circular. (I’ll buy a bit of yang and yin action herein, from a certain viewpoint)

Dragon we refer to not as “The Dragon” but more towards the Dragon style of Lam Yew Gwai, which involves more waist rotation and a more solid powerful attack, fierce as a Tiger, but not as fluid or loose. Big Yang. As demonstrated in the pattern Ying Jou Lin Que.

We seldom if ever speak of Crane or Snake.

The Elements are part of our heritage, but Sifu doesn’t interest himself much in them. Or at least I have discovered from my questions. He comes from a bare-knuckle background and looks at things from that perspective. He was in his early 30’s when his Sifu died, and was fearsome at that time.

Mind you, it is a bit of a struggle with our language problems, I have learned from physical not verbal teaching.

Mantis,

I’m told our branch has a bit more Dragon Style in it than other lineages.
Sifu said he used to drink tea with Sifu Chau Fook in HK before he died. I assume that means some friendship.

In reference to your comments and to some of the other members of the board. Would you agree that the 5 elements theory and how they can be applied to fighting are a fishing pole, as opposed to fish?

We are talking about “the imortals” still, yes?

FT
Yau Kung Mun is certainly more Shaolin than Pak Mei, how does all this come together with what you were taught in your last years with Sifu Leung Cheung? How does it mesh with the study you did in Daoism?

A very interesting thread, thanks to all involved for not only their contributions, but their spirit.

(EAZ, I’ll burn joss for you )

[fiercest_tiger]

yum cha

i was told exactly what mantis 108 has mentioned although i see the bak mei forms as the tiger and leopard style and the real ykm as the dragon,snake and crane of its internal workings.

5 elements is the angles and attacking of the dim ma/yuet points of each move. it should brake down the internal energy of your opponent!!

that makes sense.

[extrajoseph]

Guohuen,

The Luoshu Tuo or the River Luo Diagram is a basis for a lot of Chinese esoteric teachings including the internal art of the Bak Gwa Patterns and the Guo Gung (Nine Palaces) Steppings. The diagram or the magic square looks like this:

4 9 2
3 5 7
8 1 6

We can see the two diagonal pairs of 4 + 6 and 2 + 8 = 10, and the two cardinal pairs of 3 + 7 and 1 + 9 = 10, with the 5 in the middle joining them all together to make 15.

The Later Heaven Bak Gwa is presented by the numbers:

4 = Xun
9 = Li
2 = Kun
3 = Zhen
7 = Dui
8 = Gen
1 = Kan
6 = Qian

Figures 1 - 9 represented the Guo Gung.

We walk the Bak Gwa and Guo Gung according to the energy pattern hidden in these numbers. It is a meditative way for the advanced CLF practitioners to train their footwork and stepping strategy for attack and retreat.

JosephX

[cherrypraxis]

mantis108,

Though I’ve heard of the I-Ching referenced numerous times, I’m not quite sure what it is except that it is “the book of changes” that people use for philosophical treatises and/or soothsaying. I’ve just started Ba Gua and did some preliminary research covering the superficial basics…i.e. that Ba Gua’s movements are actually based on the I-Ching.

Actually, my fascination with martial arts stems from the “esoteric” since my introduction to it a few years back appeared to be on that ground. It would be fantastic if you opened a new thread on I-Ching theory since it is probably misplaced in this thread. From reading a number of threads, however, it seems that most people are more keen on application rather than theory and so I fear a miscommunication of sorts. Also, can you recommend a translation? Thanks…

extrajoseph:

Thanks for addressing my out-of-topic side comment. I wasn’t sure whether my comments would be received warmly. I’m glad I posted anyway and I’m not just addressing the figurative wall.

I have actually seen this diagram that you speak of but I had no idea that it has that name and concept. That’s amazing! By any chance, is this from the I-Ching as well?

As I’ve stated to mantis, I’ve just started Ba Gua. You practice Ba Gua too, hmm?

As for my use of “Man and Woman,” I am flattered that you think I am French. Actually, I’ve just been learning French for the past five months and I addressed something that EAZ and CrimsonPhoenix were speaking of in another thread. I can only hope that EAZ excuses my butchering his language as I am still learning it…

[extrajoseph]

Cherrypraxis,

You have got me fooled I thought you are French! What you asked is relevant to CMA. Yes, the Luo Shu diagram is part of the I Ching and it has influenced Chinese culture deeply and many things that we do can be traced back to its thinking.

I do not practise Baguaquan as such, I do Choy Lee Fut, which is a southern Shaolin system that has forms and “lian kung” (training) methods based on the I Ching as well. I got interested in this discussion because we have the full Five-Animal Forms as well as the full Ten-Animal Forms and also the 9 Bak Gwa Forms in the advanced level. I often wonder where the philosophy underlying these forms comes from. Now it is much clearer for me after these discussions.

My research during the weekend showed that the Ng Ying Kuen was first introduced by Buk Yuk-Fung during the late Song and early Yuan Dynasty. He wrote a classic called “Ng Kuen Jing Yao” (The Essential Requirements of the Five Fists) and explained clearly the characteristic of the Five-Animal Form. It is interesting to note that there was no mention of the Five Elements in his writing, so IMHO, whatever connections people made between the Five Animals and the Five Elements were done after his writing and teaching.

Since he and his friends Lee Song and Monk Gok Yuen (1224-1232) instigated the last revival of the Shaolin Temple Kung Fu, the Ng Ying Kuen became the core teaching for most of the southern Shaolin systems nowadays including Choy Lee Fut. If not the core then it still played an important role to a varying degree.

However the Five Elements theory do played an important part in Shaolin Kung Fu also. It is used not with the Five Animals but with the way we classified different types of actions. For example, Pak Chui (Axe Cut) in CLF belongs to the Element Metal, because metal can cut like an axe to “pak” downward and Fan Jong (Upper Cut) belongs to the Element Fire because its action grows upward like a flame of a fire. Since according to the Weakening Cycle of the Five Elements Theory, a lot of Metal can weaken Fire, we can use a powerful Pak Chui (a lot of Metal) to overcome a weak Fan Jong (weak Fire). However, if our Fang Jong is very strong, it can easily destroy a weak Pak Chui, just like a strong Fire can melt any Metal according to the Controlling Cycle of the Five Elements Theory.

So we can see, even though they are not related or need not be related, the Five Animals and the I Ching theories can help us understand our chosen arts better. Esoteric theories are very useful and practical after all.

Merci beaucoup, mon ami! (This is all I got to show after 5 years of high school French!) I hope this all makes sense to you even though you don’t do CLF.

JosephX

[EAZ]

Re: Animals and elements

Originally posted by Yum Cha
[B]EAZ,

As another piece of your puzzle, our Sifu says our Pak Mei is not Shaolin. He is definate about that. Less definate about being buddhist though, lots of mixing he says.

AGREED. THIS IS AS I AM TAUGHT.(Pak Mei comes from Shaolin traditions but of course is not Shaolin. )

Our Animals:

Tiger, fierce and strong, moves straight in and kills. Leopard, more elusive, more lateral movement and grabbing, tangling to disable and kill. More circular. (I’ll buy a bit of yang and yin action herein, from a certain viewpoint)

SAME HERE

Dragon we refer to not as “The Dragon” but more towards the Dragon style of Lam Yew Gwai, which involves more waist rotation and a more solid powerful attack, fierce as a Tiger, but not as fluid or loose. Big Yang. As demonstrated in the pattern Ying Jou Lin Que.

SAME HERE

We seldom if ever speak of Crane or Snake.

SAME HERE

FT
Yau Kung Mun is certainly more Shaolin than Pak Mei, how does all this come together with what you were taught in your last years with Sifu Leung Cheung? How does it mesh with the study you did in Daoism?

WHY IS YKM MORE SHAOLIN THAN PAK MEI?
[/B]

There is not such a big difference after all. We all agree here anyways that Tiger and Leopard and associated values and principles are core of Pak Mei.

I guess I am also trying to figure out (once gain, will <i ever find the solution?) why HK Pak Mei is so closed in guard and in standing position with a relatively narrow spectrum of movement types, and in Vietnam, the stances start lower and spectrum of movement types is larger.

To what extent is this an addon in Vietnam? SInce Pei Mei came to Vietnam in the 1930s, without any influence from HK Pak Mei styles, I am trying to determine if the guy who brought Pak Mei to Vietnam influenced the style himself, or if he adopted sino-viet tradition of 5 elements/aniamsl theory, or if they practiced Pak Mei differently in different time periods.

I was hoping that by elucidating the link between 5 animals and elements with other prationers, I might get a bit more of the bigger picture.

Thanks all.

[fiercest_tiger]

EAZ

EAZ

“I guess I am also trying to figure out (once gain, will <i ever find the solution?) why HK Pak Mei is so closed in guard and in standing position with a relatively narrow spectrum of movement types, and in Vietnam, the stances start lower and spectrum of movement types is larger.”

FT

I definetely believe that there is no such thing as a fighting stance. When I say this I don’t mean “on guard” like the bak mei closed centerline hand position. Not everything starts or finishes here. Personally, your attack is your guard. If you have to have a guard stance to start a fight, if the other person is a good martial artist he can easily figure out how you will defend or set you up to defend in a certain way. Therefore you will have no defense.

I do not know the masters name that took bak mei to Vietnam, but I heard there was three disciples of CLC. One went to Vietnam, the other one was the Yau Kung Mun Grandmaster Har Hon Hung, and I can’t think of the other ones name. Now, the way I see it, I think each teacher knew their own weaknesses and strong points for their fighting stance. This all depends on what knowledge they were taught of body gates. It depends on how good the teacher was with the gate theories. This will dictate what type of stance they would perfer to use.

Does this make sense? Im not saying that on guard stance is bad, but it is very limited with technique. Especially if your strong techniques are moves that come in towards your centerline. Now do you understand? Does that make sense now?

This is a good thread, I hope that we can keep it rolling!

Take care

FT