Forms are a great training tool, personally I love them. I think they not only categorize movements and document them, but increase many of the attributes necessary for doing Kung Fu properly. I think in recent times however teachers/schools have used them to retain students. I mean how can someone practice sixteen empty hand forms regularly? Weapon forms being the same. My personal opinion 6 empty hand forms is more than enough for a lifetime, that and maybe 4 weapon forms. Then you have basics, conditioning, sanda, partner drills, qi gong etc. To each his own of course, i just don’t think it should be expected as the norm to teach and practice so many empty hand and weapon forms, and looked down upon if a schools curriculum has less. I really feel people are missing the point when it comes to form training, in our modern times.
You want to grow tall and you don’t want to grow fat. To read 100 elementary school books, you are still an elementary school student. You will need to read books from elementary school, junior high, senior high, college, and graduate school.
If a form can only make you to grow “fat”. Discard that form ASAP.
Form is the language of the body. The body doesn’t understand words and principles and can only be taught with action.
When you are reading about a subject would you limit yourself to a set number of books? You do not need to memorise many books, but its a good idea to read many, then after a while language will flow naturally.
You don’t need to remember many forms or practice a large set of them regularly, but it is good to regularly try new forms, bend your body through them, see what they feel like, apply the techniques and see if they resonate with you.
If you practice the technique 'Chuan Zhang ’ in many different steps, in many different combinations and situations, against many different targets, then eventually the principle of it will fuse into your muscles and bones and you don’t need any of the forms any more, your body will naturally assume the shape it needs to power the technique, and your body will easily find the opportunity for its use. But if you only ever practice it one way your body will only be able to use it in that one shape, and then it will never find its opportunity for use.
Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.
I guess it would depend on WHY one does martial arts.
For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
If a person is into the tradition of the art then as many forms as the art has is needed.
Personally I only do 3 empty handed forms regularly and weapons? mostly “free style” forms.
I agree that too many (or over-emphasis on) forms is not a good thing. Whether one is into MA for the fighting aspect, or even if one prefers the forms/artistic aspect. As SR said, if one’s focus is on fighting, then no forms are necessary at all.
I’m not sure you that can put a specific number at how many is enough, or too many, though. It all depends on the individual, his preference/interest, and how much he/she is able to actually practice and gain an understanding of them. For some people, two or three forms are too many; for others who “collect” forms, there are never enough.
Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. For example, many people like to say that CLF has over a hundred empty-hand and weapons sets. Well, name me one person who knows, much less practices, 100+ forms. Even if you learned that many (or even less than half that) and tried to maintain them, you would suck at all of them. You would also confuse one set with another, since there are many common movements/combinations in any style’s sets. Then it becomes just collecting a bunch of movements so you can say you learned the _____ form if someone asks.
That’s the problem with schools that hold out more and more forms as enticements. A “more advanced form” will not make someone a “more advanced MAist”. There are countless people without any forms (or who appear very mediocre at even simple forms, of which Georges St.-Pierre is but one example) whose true MA and fighting abilities are outstanding.
Forms-wise, I personally have about a dozen empty-hand CLF forms that I regularly practice, but some of those are very rare short sets. I haven’t practiced any of the weapons sets in years. Occasionally, I do targeting and bag work with my long staff. I love the CLF long staff and its applications, and we trained to free-spar with padded staves, but I never particularly liked either of the two staff forms that I learned.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1294053]For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
.[/QUOTE]
I am one of those believers that feels forms have value for self defense. Definitely not by themselves, and certainly not for sport fighting, but if trained with other important areas of kung fu training, like conditioning, two man drills, horse stance/standing post training. Back when I was doing Bagua zhang, I used a few techniques that came straight from the forms, in a couple altercations. Never even practiced those particular techniques in sparring or two man drills either.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1294052]
Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.[/QUOTE]
I understand your point, and if it make that student happy sure no harm done. but personally, i don’t want to constantly learn new forms. Boxers must constantly learn and they have what like a dozen techniques in their arsenal. also I think you can constantly learn from material you already know.
In BSL we have a large number of forms and your right I dont get a chance to practice them all in one sitting each day (I wish!). Each of our forms concentrates on a main theme so I make that particular session about that theme whether it be kicking, close quarter fighting etc and run through those forms and techniques.
I think alot of students now learn an array of forms and continually go through the ones that fit them, better to have a variety to pick from in my view.
I’ve learned a lot of forms.
I am of the view that one form is enough really. 
Learning new movement patterns is challenging, and possibly stimulates the creation of new neural pathways (maybe even new neurons). I believe this has also been shown for social dancing. So if you want the mental benefits, it may be a good idea not to just keep refining the movement systems you’ve already learned.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1294072]I’ve learned a lot of forms.
I am of the view that one form is enough really. :)[/QUOTE]
You mean one really really long form???
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1294072]I am of the view that one form is enough really. :)[/QUOTE]
When I still worked form with my students (I no longer teach form). I had combined 14 forms into 1 (84 moves) so students only need to learn 1 form instead of having to learn 14 forms.
Those 14 forms are:
- long fist Tan Tui,
- long fist Lien Bu Chuan,
- long fist Kung Li Chuan,
- long fist little 5 hands,
- long fist Mai Fu 1st road,
- long fist Mai Fu 2nd road,
- long fist Xi Zi Tan,
- long fist Pao Chuan 3rd road,
- long fist Si Lou Ben Da,
- long fist Shao Hu Yen,
- long fist Za Chuan 4th road,
- long fist Tai Zhu long fist,
13, 7 star praying mantis Lian Ja, - 7 star praying mantis Zia Yao.
Form is solo work.
When you have partner work, you can benefit from what you’ve learned in form.
Forms in a style are progressive and repetitive.
You’ll find only one or two new techniques and more of what you’ve already inculcated from before as you progress through a style that uses forms to teach.
So long as you work on kicks, punches, throws and locks as well as your conditioning and supplementary skills, then form work becomes less of the cycle while devices and partner work becomes more.
For me, this equates to one form being more than enough. For me, it’s an Iron Thread set.
A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.
A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.
In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1294156]A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.
A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.
In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.[/QUOTE]
interesting indeed
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1294156]A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is …[/QUOTE]
If you do partner drills training,
solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + …
You no longer need to learn any forms.
Oh you don’t need martial arts at all, there are far better ways of fighting.
But if you feel that draw, then you cannot get around some individual training. Many techniques will not reach their full expression with a partner. You will never strike them fully, you will need to hit things or air sometimes.
Many people think hitting air is useless. But I have enough experience with fights to know there is always a lot of hitting air. Almost every fight I have seen someone throws a punch or kick that doesn’t hit its target when it clearly could have. I used to think it was bad training and inexperience. But after seeing experienced well trained people hit the air in front of someone I realised it is not experience or training but perhaps the lack of a firm will. After seeing determined people do it also I realised it cannot be this. And after doing it myself sometimes and not others I came to the conclusion that it is nature.
Consciously or not sometimes our body will not let us hit the opponent. Why this is one will have to ask a psychologist. But one thing I do know is that this behaviour cannot be changed by ordinary training. People will tell you its a bad habit, but its not a habit at all. It may seem like a terrible strategy, but instead of trying to (and believing that) you have changed your nature, I find it better to just go with it.
The greater part of fighting is MISSING not hitting. Best to train that too.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1294156]A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.
A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.
In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.[/QUOTE]
Nice post.
Although forms are not necessary to learn how to fight, I do feel that form practice is (or can be) a very beneficial aspect of training. Forms contain “idealized” movements and postures that put the body into positions that would not occur in the same manner with a partner or opponent. There is benefit to this greater extension and contraction of movement. It also develops a unique form of self-awareness and body discipline; one becomes (or strives to become) aware of the position of each body part and what each is doing, simultaneously, without getting hung up on it.
Now, someone can argue that you develop this type of awareness solely by partner training, which is true in some instances, such as in grappling. But forms practice can be another way of getting there without a partner, and I haven’t found that it’s ever had any negative effects on my sparring or fighting. In some ways, quite the opposite.
I am not of the belief that practicing forms somehow holds you back. It depends on how you approach it. If one’s forms practice is merely going through the motions to maintain a bunch of material out of a sense of duty without digging any deeper, or to simply accumulate more and more forms so one can say, “I also have the ______ set”, then it probably won’t benefit you beyond perhaps satisfying an interest. Superficially maintaining a bunch of forms just to maintain them is like perpetually owing money.
There are some who believe the more forms someone knows, the better his/her Kung Fu. Then the opposite extreme are those with ‘formophibia’; those who feel that forms practice is either detrimental to one’s progress, or who do practice forms but seem almost ashamed of it. To each his/her own, but IME, forms are simply one aspect of training in most CMA, not to be taken out of context to either extreme. Whether one chooses to continue practicing them beyond a certain point or not is up to the individual. But certainly, 10 to 20 minutes (or more, if you like) of practicing one’s forms as a part of training is, at the very least, more beneficial than the hours a day most people seem to spend addicted to texting, playing video games and taking ‘selfies’ on their iPhones.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1294181]If you do partner drills training,
solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + …
You no longer need to learn any forms.[/QUOTE]
if you are training for sport fighting sure you don’t need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1294222]if you are training for sport fighting sure you don’t need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Forms are a method of learning solo practice. They contain techniques, but that technique is not of any use until it is actually applied.
Reading a book and writing a book are two utterly different things.
Be careful not to ascribe too much to the mundane.