Zhou Tong - Teacher of Gen. Yue Fei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;714787][SIZE=“2”]I have heard that Zhou Tong was a Fanzi master. However, I have not been able to find any reputable English pages that actually say this. I can’t use info from forum pages. It must be published in a book or in a website that is in someway linked to a noted master or, again, a book.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I am looking for definite info for an article I am doing as well.

It wouldn’t be fantzi, of course, because that’s what it was called in the 1800s.
In the 1500s it was called Ba Shan Fan.
Before that Ba Fan Shou.

It is pretty much the same thing as Yue Fei style during earlier time periods,
people called Ba Shan Fan “yue fei quan” in some areas.

So, Zhou Tong’s art was a forerunner to Ba Shan Fan and then Fantzi.

Someone uncovered some exteremely rare martial arts books from the Sung dynasty recently, it was buried inside a coated animal bladder to keep it safe underground!

It tells the name of a taoist martial artist that one of the Sung emperors called into help train the troops with a systematic martial art.

42

[SIZE=“2”][QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;715022]I am looking for definite info for an article I am doing as well.

It wouldn’t be fantzi, of course, because that’s what it was called in the 1800s.
In the 1500s it was called Ba Shan Fan.
Before that Ba Fan Shou.

It is pretty much the same thing as Yue Fei style during earlier time periods,
people called Ba Shan Fan “yue fei quan” in some areas.

So, Zhou Tong’s art was a forerunner to Ba Shan Fan and then Fantzi.

Someone uncovered some exteremely rare martial arts books from the Sung dynasty recently, it was buried inside a coated animal bladder to keep it safe underground!

It tells the name of a taoist martial artist that one of the Sung emperors called into help train the troops with a systematic martial art.[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying I’m a history expert or anything, but none of the Yue Fei Chronicles I’ve read ever mention “Shaolin” or any other boxing style in association with Zhou Tong. He is only represented as Yue Fei’s archery teacher. What is your source that Zhou Tong practiced Fanzi. The only place I’ve heard of it is through forum sites.

I have found that neither of the “Yue Fei Biography” from the Yuan Dynasty or the “Speak Yue’s Entire Biography” from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong’s portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn’t start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.

Is your article about Zhou tong or just about martial arts in general? When the time comes, which won’t be for many years, I plan on doing my dissertation on Yue Fei and Zhou Tong. Later, I want to translate Zhou Tong’s wuxia biography into English. I currently have the Chinese reading level of a retarded monkey. So you can see that it will be a while before the book hits the shelf.[/SIZE]

43

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;715142][SIZE=“2”]

I’m not saying I’m a history expert or anything, but none of the Yue Fei Chronicles I’ve read ever mention “Shaolin” or any other boxing style in association with Zhou Tong. He is only represented as Yue Fei’s archery teacher. What is your source that Zhou Tong practiced Fanzi. The only place I’ve heard of it is through forum sites.

I have found that neither of the “Yue Fei Biography” from the Yuan Dynasty or the “Speak Yue’s Entire Biography” from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong’s portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn’t start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.

Is your article about Zhou tong or just about martial arts in general? When the time comes, which won’t be for many years, I plan on doing my dissertation on Yue Fei and Zhou Tong. Later, I want to translate Zhou Tong’s wuxia biography into English. I currently have the Chinese reading level of a retarded monkey. So you can see that it will be a while before the book hits the shelf.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

My article is about how the evolution of Yue Fei being held as the founder of the various styles and how Fantzi/Chuo Jiao is the root in common with all these styles.

Yeah, I agree, there is nothing but recent legends that say Zhou Tong was from Shaolin. I think that it stems from some old Fantzi forms are Shaolin based, there is a 32 Tai Tzu form, some Luohan forms, etc., and they are attributed to him. Being a military man, he more than likely knew some Shaolin. People were assuming that what he knew came from Shaolin, because Fantzi / Chuo Jiao came from Wen Family system, which is related to tai tzu chang quan system.

The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

Here is what I could find about him:

During the Heavenly Kingdom rebellion (1851-1864) time period, its leader,
Shi Da-Kai () of Hakka origin, had his troops learn Fantzi/Chuo Jiao.
In Volume 20 of the Unofficial History of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom,
it recounts how Shi’s soldiers fought Qing Imperial troops using the basic jade ring and mandarin duck kicking skills of Chuo Jiao taught by their leader. His troops were able to successfully beat back the Imperialist troops when they were in close range with hand to hand combat (until the Manchu wised up and turned the tables by attacking with long range weapons first).

Another military commander from the TaiPing Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion,
Zhao Canyi () sometimes referred to as Feng Keshan or Zhao Laocan also
practiced Fantzi and Chuo Jiao in addition to many other military arts. After the
TaiPing army failed to conquer the city of Tianjin, Zhao and members of his
army resided in Raoyang County, Hebei province.

In Raoyang, Zhao Canyi taught many disciples strongly establishing Chuo Jiao in the area of Hebei. Zhao Canyi was originally
from Hua County in Henan province. He studied with Tang Heng Lao in Zhu
Zhao Cun (likely to have been “Meihuazhuang”, another ancient martial art
that the Wen/Wu nomenclature possibly originated). Later many great masters
including Wang Xian from Ji Ning county in Shandong taught him various
advanced boxing skills.

After the rebellion, Zhao Canyi became a wanderer and travelled from Dezhou
county in Shandong province to Hua county in Henan province. He changed his
names many times and as a result was known in each area often by a different
name. Only his closest disciples would know his actual name. In Raoyang, he
first taught Huaquan (Marvellous Boxing) in 12 routines in the Southern
villages. In the Northern villages, he taught Jinggang Jia (Jingang frames)
in 8 routines and Jing Gang Strikes in 8 routines. In Shen county he taught
Shaolin Boxing - Erlang quan and Bafan shou (which is called Fantzi now).
Later, Zhao Canyi spent many years in Hebei teaching in different areas, and
the variations to Fantzi/Chuojiao are numerous. Fundamentally, however they
have all become similar in concept and essence whilst the structure and
organization of the systems contents may differ. There are 54 Empty Hand
forms in Zhao Family Chuojiao

Chuo Jiao / Fan tzi (Bafan Shou) spread in areas of Henan province. By
then, the misinformation / legend that Yue Fei was the founder of this
martial art (and hence all the martial arts that were related to this style,
such as Xiang Xing Boxing, spear methods, and Six Harmony Boxing) was spread
throughout Hebei, Henan, and many other provinces. After retiring, Zhao
Guanyi returned to his county Gao Yang and only passed the art to his sons
and their family retaining all original teachings, being supplemented later
by his descendents and the boxing styles from neighbouring villages.

44

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;715217]My article is about how the evolution of Yue Fei being held as the founder of the various styles and how Fantzi/Chuo Jiao is the root in common with all these styles.

Yeah, I agree, there is nothing but recent legends that say Zhou Tong was from Shaolin. I think that it stems from some old Fantzi forms are Shaolin based, there is a 32 Tai Tzu form, some Luohan forms, etc., and they are attributed to him. Being a military man, he more than likely knew some Shaolin. People were assuming that what he knew came from Shaolin, because Fantzi / Chuo Jiao came from Wen Family system, which is related to tai tzu chang quan system.

The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.

Here is what I could find about him:

During the Heavenly Kingdom rebellion (1851-1864) time period, its leader,
Shi Da-Kai () of Hakka origin, had his troops learn Fantzi/Chuo Jiao.
In Volume 20 of the Unofficial History of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom,
it recounts how Shi’s soldiers fought Qing Imperial troops using the basic jade ring and mandarin duck kicking skills of Chuo Jiao taught by their leader. His troops were able to successfully beat back the Imperialist troops when they were in close range with hand to hand combat (until the Manchu wised up and turned the tables by attacking with long range weapons first).

Another military commander from the TaiPing Heavenly Kingdom Rebellion,
Zhao Canyi () sometimes referred to as Feng Keshan or Zhao Laocan also
practiced Fantzi and Chuo Jiao in addition to many other military arts. After the
TaiPing army failed to conquer the city of Tianjin, Zhao and members of his
army resided in Raoyang County, Hebei province.

In Raoyang, Zhao Canyi taught many disciples strongly establishing Chuo Jiao in the area of Hebei. Zhao Canyi was originally
from Hua County in Henan province. He studied with Tang Heng Lao in Zhu
Zhao Cun (likely to have been “Meihuazhuang”, another ancient martial art
that the Wen/Wu nomenclature possibly originated). Later many great masters
including Wang Xian from Ji Ning county in Shandong taught him various
advanced boxing skills.

After the rebellion, Zhao Canyi became a wanderer and travelled from Dezhou
county in Shandong province to Hua county in Henan province. He changed his
names many times and as a result was known in each area often by a different
name. Only his closest disciples would know his actual name. In Raoyang, he
first taught Huaquan (Marvellous Boxing) in 12 routines in the Southern
villages. In the Northern villages, he taught Jinggang Jia (Jingang frames)
in 8 routines and Jing Gang Strikes in 8 routines. In Shen county he taught
Shaolin Boxing - Erlang quan and Bafan shou (which is called Fantzi now).
Later, Zhao Canyi spent many years in Hebei teaching in different areas, and
the variations to Fantzi/Chuojiao are numerous. Fundamentally, however they
have all become similar in concept and essence whilst the structure and
organization of the systems contents may differ. There are 54 Empty Hand
forms in Zhao Family Chuojiao

Chuo Jiao / Fan tzi (Bafan Shou) spread in areas of Henan province. By
then, the misinformation / legend that Yue Fei was the founder of this
martial art (and hence all the martial arts that were related to this style,
such as Xiang Xing Boxing, spear methods, and Six Harmony Boxing) was spread
throughout Hebei, Henan, and many other provinces. After retiring, Zhao
Guanyi returned to his county Gao Yang and only passed the art to his sons
and their family retaining all original teachings, being supplemented later
by his descendents and the boxing styles from neighbouring villages.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“2”]Thanks. That was very enlightening. I have just added some more xingyi info in the “links to other styles” section of the Zhou Tong article. One paragraph comes from a xingyi manual written by Dai Longbang in either 1750 or 1786 (I have two sources with conflicting dates).[/SIZE]

45

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;715142][SIZE=“2”]I have found that neither of the “Yue Fei Biography” from the Yuan Dynasty or the “Speak Yue’s Entire Biography” from the Qing Dynasty ever mention Zhou Tong being a Shaolin Monk. The last biography was written sometime between the years 1661 - 1735 (as that’s what it says in the introduction). So this could mean Zhou Tong’s portrayal as a Shaolin monk didn’t start until the mid-late Qing Dynasty. As Shaolin Master had previously said, it is very possible that he was a former military man.[/QUOTE]

I have found the Liùhéquán Xù ( – “Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing”) written by Xingyi Master Dai Longbang () in 1750 doesn’t mention Zhou Tong in reference to Shaolin either. This is all it says:

“ ”

[/SIZE]

46

[SIZE=“2”]I need the following translated as well:

—1912332—181888198818461935

http://www.cn-wushuschool.com/page13.htm

—142619“10”“

http://www.cn-wushuschool.com/page15.htm

These are about ancient manuals and Zhou Tong’s supposed connection to Wudang Golden Bell Qigong.

I would LOVE to speak with Master Fan Keping to see how Zhou Tong became associated with this style!!! There are even VCD’s available about these styles and all of them say they come from Zhou Tong![/SIZE]

47

ABout Fanzi Quan and Shaolin Luohan connection:

Well, upon a deeper investigation of postures and movements between the two systems.

I have to say, there are MANY exact same postures with the exact same names for the postures!

So, what gives? Who came first?

I had thought that the 144 posture/ 8 sections 18 Luohan Hands form had many postures the same as in Ba Gua.
So, I was wondering Dong Hai Quan perhaps had some exposure to these 18 Luohan forms.

Then, I re-read the Professor’s thesis that talks about Dong Hai Quan practicing Fa Shan Fan (fanzi quan) in his youth and that many postures were the same, etc., etc.

Well, these same postures are in Luohan, Fanzi, and Ba Gua.

So, what going on here?

What comes first? The Luohan or the Fanzi forms?

They even have the same names for postures, such as:
Both Hands Push Open the Windows.

Many of these postures are unique to Fanzi Quan and to Luohan only
(except the Yue Jia Quan styles, they share a lot of moves from Fanzi Quan
and thus this Luohan)

This is most likely why people in past times (in folklore or in fact) said that fanzi quan was derived from Shaolin or that Zhou Tong, as Fanzi (Ba Shan Fan) master learned from Shaolin.

Perhaps it was the other way around, this stuff was taught to Shaolin, via Zhou Tong or others, as some oral transmissions say instead.

Most famous Fanzi master from 1800s, Zhou Canyi knew and taught BOTH Fanzi Quan AND Shaolin forms to people. Maybe he is the source of the folklore linking Shaolin and Fanzi Quan via Zhou Tong?

Looking at the various Fanzi quan systems around. There are some older lines that have forms that are Luohan forms (called Khao Zen forms), and a 32 posture Tai Tzu form too (which is at Shaolin).

DOES ANYONE have ANY kind of information that can shed some light on this?
Like when? where? Who? What? How?
Anything!

thanks!

48

bumping this thread up.

49

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;715217]
The person that spread fantzi / chuo jiao combined style throughout China during the mid and late 1800s was Zhao Canyi, who told different people from different areas a different name for himself. Anyways, HE is the most likely the source of all the Zhou Tong talk of him being founder of the style, and this Zhao Canyi did a lot of Shaolin.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t say I’ve ever read anything about Fanzi that mentions Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk or him in association with that style besides Sal Canzonieris research. I think this might come from Zhou Tongs connection with Chuo Jiao, which is stated in several 20th century Chuo Jiao books that he learned this style from Deng Liang. This style, combined with Fanzi (Chuojiaofanzi boxing) was spread by Zhao Canyi as stated by Sal. So there is the connection. But the historical Yue Fei Biography does not mention any kind of martial arts in reference to Zhou Tong. He is only represented as an archer.

Im by no means knocking Sals research. He has a behavioral science degree (with triple majors), so he is FAR MORE qualified than I am currently to map the anthropological connections between styles, but he has himself asked people to provide him with any information that would help support his theories.

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;716386]
Most famous Fanzi master from 1800s, Zhou Canyi knew and taught BOTH Fanzi Quan AND Shaolin forms to people. Maybe he is the source of the folklore linking Shaolin and Fanzi Quan via Zhou Tong?

Looking at the various Fanzi quan systems around. There are some older lines that have forms that are Luohan forms (called Khao Zen forms), and a 32 posture Tai Tzu form too (which is at Shaolin).

DOES ANYONE have ANY kind of information that can shed some light on this?
Like when? where? Who? What? How?
Anything![/QUOTE]

The only style Ive seen that OPENLY says Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk is Eagle Claw. I personally think this legend came about because Zhou Tong was the teacher of Yue Fei, who has many Shaolin-based martial arts styles attributed to him. The birth of the legend might have gone something like this: Yue Fei created [whatever] style, which is practiced by Shaolin. Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have learned these skills from Shaolin and passed them onto Yue Fei. Therefore, Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk. Of course this is nothing but pure speculation. But Im sure you guys can see where Im coming from.

As I recently wrote Sal in a PM, I have been able to push the time line up to the mid 19th century in reference to the birth of the legend that Zhou Tong was a Shaolin Monk. I have spoken with Honorable Sir T.L. Yang on several occasions (again this morning at 5 am) and he tells me, just as it says in his English translation of the Speak Yues Entire Biography (A.k.a. General Yue Fei), that he combined the first chapters of two different 80 chapter editions to create the 79 chapter edition that he translated. The second 80 chapter version was published sometime during the reign of Qing Dynasty Emperor Tongzi (r. 1861-1875). With the exception of extra supernatural elements, this version is the same as the first edition. This later edition does not mention Zhou Tong as a Shaolin monk either. I believe the legend was born in the late Qing Dynasty.

In fact, Honorable Sir T.L. Yang even comments in the introduction of this translation:

The work is a historical novel in form, but it is in fact based almost mainly on legends which were current amongst the common people for centuries.

So if the legend of Zhou Tong being a Shaolin monk had been around during this time, it would have been added into the book. Plus, if it was true, it would have been added to Yue Fei’s Yuan Dynasty biography since the Mongols are the ones who reopened the Shaolin monastery and made Fuyu its abbot in the mid 1200’s. Thoughts?

50

My research? I’ve not been able to find much info on Zhou Tong just as much as the next guy. All legends so far.

The eagle claw people got their Zhou Tong “legend” from the Liu De Kan, who practiced 6 harmony style. He got it from Yue Fei Jia Quan practioners.
So, it all comes full circle.

Who said it first?

You have Yue Fei Jia Quan legends saying he learned from Zhou Tong.
When?

You have Fanzi Quan by way of the Taiping Rebellion generals saying Zhou Tong was the source of their style. After 1650s.

51

My research?

The only times Ive read anything that associated Zhou Tong with Fanzi is from your research article (which I hope is coming along well) and various posts on this site. For instance:

[quote=Sal Canzonieri;641156] Also, Yue family martial art style, which is recognized as a root to Dai family Xin Yi and Henan Xin Yi styles, is atributed to come from Yue Fei’s teacher, who was Zhou Dong, who taught/practiced Shaolin (Lohan) and FanTzi (when it was called Ba Shan Fan).

Supposedly Ba Shan Fan comes from a Monk named Zhou Tong, who if he studied Shaolin from the early Song Dynasty time period, most have learned Lohan and 6 harmony boxing. He also most likely had learned Tong Bei since it was very common at the time he was around.[/quote](Link)

Are you sure that your are not mixing the Eagle Claw myth about Zhou Tong being a monk (which has become so widely spread that it is no longer associated with just Eagle claw, but accepted as fact on a grand scale by all styles attributed to him via Yue Fei) with the legend that Zhou Tong learned Chuojiao from Deng Liang and then connecting it to Fanzi via its association with Chuojiao, Chuojiao Fanzi Boxing and Chuojiaos usage during the Taiping Rebellion? Please forgive my tone if it seems negative, but you have to understand that I have not been able to find this anywhere besides your posts. Im serious, type in Zhou Tong and Fanzi or Bashanfan into an internet search engine and the only results that come up are your posts and the posts I and a few others have made in the past regarding your material.

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;719777]The eagle claw people got their Zhou Tong “legend” from the Liu De Kan, who practiced 6 harmony style. He got it from Yue Fei Jia Quan practioners.[/quote]

Are you stating or speculating this to be true? Do you have a supporting source or is it based upon connective histories from your research?

You have Yue Fei Jia Quan legends saying he learned from Zhou Tong. When?

You have Fanzi Quan by way of the Taiping Rebellion generals saying Zhou
Tong was the source of their style. After 1650s.

Yes, history says he was Yue Feis teacher, so he will be listed as such. But do any of these legends, besides those from eagle claw, say he was a Shaolin Monk? That is what I am most interested in at the moment. Can you show me an actual scholarly source (no forums) that says Fanzi was created by Zhou Tong that is not your own work?

Another thing I recently became obsessed with is the exact time frame when Wu Song, Lin Chong, and Lu Junyi became associated as Zhou Tongs students. The fictional Speak Yues Entire Biography (a.k.a. General Yue Fei) mentions Lin Chong and Lu Junyi as his students, so by the 17th, 18th or 19th century (depending on which version Hon. Sir T.L. Yang used to translate that portion of the novel) this connection had already been made. But this might have come about because the “Water Margin” (a.k.a. All men are brothers/Outlaws of the marsh) was a popular novel at the time. Maybe Qian Cai, the original author, read it and included them into his tale. Who knows.

52

I must admit that I have searched the Chinese net and found (very scant) material referring to Zhou Tong as the founder of Fanzi. However, most of this material comes from forums. (I couldn’t find a single online book or martial arts history page that states this.) I’m not saying factual information can’t be gleamed from forums, But they offer no supporting evidence of where they found this information. One forum page about Fanzi even referred to Zhou Tong as an army officer, but, again, no supporting evidence. Plus, most of the material seems to be assumptions. They talk about how Yue Fei is considered the founder of Fanzi but that Zhou Tong is the true first line. This just sounds like they are using my little formula from above:

[QUOTE=ghostexorcist;719728]Yue Fei created [whatever] style, which is practiced by Shaolin. Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have learned these skills from Shaolin and passed them onto Yue Fei. Therefore, Zhou Tong was a Shaolin monk.”[/QUOTE]

This is what the “Ballad of Fanzi” says:

Wu Mu [Yue Fei] has passed down the Fanzi Quan which has mystery in its straightforward movements.

It doesn’t say anything about Zhou Tong. However, someone could easily assume, since it says “Wu Mu has passed down”, that Yue Fei learned this from Zhou Tong.

I even tried searching the Chinese net for Zhou Tong and Bashanfan (Fanzi’s ancient name) and found even less material. But even if there is a martial arts page or book with this info, again, all I’m interested in is if it says he was a Shaolin Monk.

If a date could be put to any scholarly material that refers to Yue Fei as the founder of Fanzi, then we might be able to map when Zhou Tong became associated as its founder. This could have come from Eagle Claw’s connection to the style. It might have been that since Fanzi and Eagle Claw were mixed to create Fanzi Ying Jow pai or Northern Eagle Claw, proponents of Fanzi began to look at Eagle Claw’s founder as their own. And then later, after the “Ballad of Wumu” was written (which clearly does not mention Zhou Tong), they thought “hey, Yue Fei learned from Zhou Tong, so Zhou Tong must have created both of these styles.”

I also must admit that there is the possibility that Yue Fei did NOT create Eagle Claw. This style is not mentioned in his Yuan Dynasty biography (1345) or his fictional Qing Dynasty biography (1661-1735)

53

Ballad of Fanzi

()

The name in the bracket is an unknown person other than Yue Fei. This is from a Fanzi line that is in the Beijing area which had relation with Yihequan once upon a time. Also the version that I got with Yue Fei’s posthumosus title has his title’s 2 characters reversed. Anyway the point is not all Fanzi has Yue Fei as the progenitor.

Mantis108

54

QUOTE=mantis108;719982

The name in the bracket is an unknown person other than Yue Fei. This is from a Fanzi line that is in the Beijing area which had relation with Yihequan once upon a time. Also the version that I got with Yue Fei’s posthumosus title has his title’s 2 characters reversed. Anyway the point is not all Fanzi has Yue Fei as the progenitor.

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

Thank you! Like I said, the style was probably attributed to him via its mix with Eagle Claw or just because a practitioner wanted to beef up his/her style’s credentials.

Do you know the date this was first written?

55

The only mention I’ve seen of eagle claw to Yue Fei is that Li Quan Seng/Lai Chin was a monk who did Fanziquan and learned skills that other monks were performing who gave credit to Yue Fei.

I’d have to look up in my notes to the oldest reference to this.

Some versions have Li Quan Seng as a religous order/group and not an individual.

56

Ballad of Fanzi

Regarding the date of this ballad, it’s almost impossible to date it simply because it is verbally passed down from generation to generation. Having said that there are elements that could give some clues to a possible range of date.

First the mentioning of the posthumous title of Yue Fei (1103-1142 CE) points towards at least the Southern Song Era.

Secondly, there are a few phases and usage of terms in the ballad that can be found in General Yu Dayou’s Classic of Sword (Jian Jing 1557 CE) and General Qi Jiguang’s New Book of Records of Efficacy (Jixiao Xinshu) of General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587 CE). Both Generals used Fanziquan in training their troops.

Now the question is “does this ballard exist before these Generals and they adopted the concepts from the ballad in their writings or the ballad is a work absorbing these great men’s writings”?

If the first case is true then the range of date of the ballad would be somewhere between Southern Song (possibly even older) to sometime late 1500s.

Personally, I believe it’s the latter. For the reason that Classic of Sword has nothing to do with Fanzi as far as I am aware but element from the Classic of Sword, which also appeared in the New Book of Records of Efficacy, is found in the ballad. We are quite certain with the idea that hand to hand combat training for the troops derived from weapon training not the other way around in TCMA. The chance of hand to hand combat inspires weapon method manuscript is quite remote. In this case the ballad would be a product of late Ming and Qing dynasty (most likely Qing).

Just a thought

Mantis108

57

[QUOTE=mantis108;720042]

If the first case is true then the range of date of the ballad would be somewhere between Southern Song (possibly even older) to sometime late 1500s.

Personally, I believe it’s the latter. For the reason that Classic of Sword has nothing to do with Fanzi as far as I am aware but element from the Classic of Sword, which also appeared in the New Book of Records of Efficacy, is found in the ballad. We are quite certain with the idea that hand to hand combat training for the troops derived from weapon training not the other way around in TCMA. The chance of hand to hand combat inspires weapon method manuscript is quite remote. In this case the ballad would be a product of late Ming and Qing dynasty (most likely Qing).

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

Thankyou. That’s what I thought. It seems that all of the legends regarding Shaolin monks and the attribution of newer styles to ancient persons all developed during the Ming and especially the Qing Dynasties.

58

[QUOTE=ngokfei;720031]The only mention I’ve seen of eagle claw to Yue Fei is that Li Quan Seng/Lai Chin was a monk who did Fanziquan and learned skills that other monks were performing who gave credit to Yue Fei.

I’d have to look up in my notes to the oldest reference to this.

Some versions have Li Quan Seng as a religous order/group and not an individual.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see that material.

I’m beginning to wonder if Yue Fei actually created any martial arts at all. This is an important issue to me, as I have stated before that I am writing a book about an elderly man that once served under Yue Fei in this youth. I know he didn’t create Xinyi Liuhe boxing, Fanzi and eagle claw is pretty much out the door, so what’s left? If these styles were so important, they would have been listed in his Yuan Dynasty biography and the various wuxia fictions written during the Qing.

The history records only mention him being a d*mn fine archer, along with Zhou Tong. That’s it! No spear, no kung fu, nothing. The only mentions of his spear prowess that I’ve seen come from Qing dynasty references. (Thanks to some of the folks at the China History Forum for helping me uncover some of this stuff). I believe it came from the “Tanyin County Gazette” (which is where Yue Fei was born). It just says that Yue Fei learned spear from a Mr. Chen Guang before his “Ji Guan” period (before he was 20) and he later took Zhou Tong as his teacher. Historically, this is erroneous. Chen Guang is not mentioned in Yue Fei’s Yuan Dynsty biography. Hell, according to this history, even his father survives the yellow river flood! I bet there aren’t a lot of people out there that know that.

I’m just thinking about writing his soldiers learned Shuai Jiao throwing, which is pretty much standard military hand-to-hand combat training, besides weapons. Besides, these various “punching” styles are not effective against soldiers wearing armor. Only weapons and grappling would have been their main modes of offense and defense.

Anyway, I know that Zhou Tong adopting Yue Fei (like it says in his wuxia fiction) is historically bogus, but I like the idea. According to the real history (or that presented in the Yuan Dynasty biography), Yue Fei’s family were poor tenant formers. After the flood destroyed much of their property, Yue Fei was forced to help his father, Yue Huo, toil in the fields. This manual labor from an early age supposedly gave him “supernatural strength” (which is probably an exaggeration for a strong legendary figure). –

Before I go any further, I have heard of how, in ancient China, extremely poor parents gave their children up for adoption to improve their social status. If Yue Fei became Zhou Tong’s adopted son, he would go from the farmer – warrior class. –

I’ll make it that Yue Fei becomes Zhou tong’s adopted son and learns various military skills from him besides archery. Even the history states that Yue Fei offered sacrifices at Zhou Tong’s grave after his death. So he must have been a very important person to him.

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[QUOTE=mantis108;712568]Xiang Xing Quan ( ) is more or less a contemporary term for a category of pugilistic systems and styles. It is almost a common knowledge amongst TCMA practitioners that there are styles available that imitate animal spirit or movements. For example Monkey, Eagle, Mantis, Dragon, Tiger, Crane, etc are all Xiang Xing Quan. No one in the Kung Fu community really bother to specifically “define” these as Xiang Xing Quan because it’s common knowledge. However, since you are interested in “scholarly research” I think you can find the term in Chapter 5 of a Chinese book called “Zhongguo Gongfu Baiyangtong” WongTing Bianzhu Changzhen ChubanShe [ISBN -7-80015-299-5]. This book is first published in July, 1994 from mainland China. Now, you would have to be able to read Chinese though.

On a different note, it is extremely difficult to verify or investigate a system or style lineage that are older than Ming (1368-1644 CE). Anytime a system or a style claims to be associated with certain people famous or otherwise as progenitor, it is possible to check the local records of such as the county gazettes for the activities of the said people (unless of course it’s “legendary”). Sometimes if you are lucky, you would have family records available. So…

Many styles claims to be originated during Song dynasty because of the rise of a school of thought known as Xiang Shu Xue Pai (Phenomena & Mathematics academia) that is considered a key element of Neo-Confucianism. Many of the theories found in TCMA are based on this school of thought (ie Taiji Tu Shuo - Discourse on Taiji Diagram).

So most of the legend of the styles (oral or otherwise) can only be taking with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

Regards

Mantis108[/QUOTE]

Now this, is a nice post!

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Hi All,

Small issue that sonnet is written in two manners.

One must be very careful. (or ) and everyone should know that Yuefei was referred to as )Yue Wumu). So therefore it does not really represent anything to the contrary.

The use of , actually refers to (Zhao Luochuan). Now with this it must also be weary as it was another of the chuojiao/fanzi based parts as related to Zhao Canyi. These would reference a much later generation to Yuefei anyways.

Thirdly, that sonnet is actually from Dongbei Fanzi which is modern Fanzi. It was written possibly by Yu Boqian, the key academic to all the Dongbei Fanzi things and which is not long ago at all. You can tell by its features and style not too old, not classical.

In respect to Fanziquan, the distinction between regional/rural Hebei old Fanziquan, what we refer to as Bafanmen and that of the re-developed Dongbei Fanziquan. which do differ in some aspects.

The Xinyi reference actually when taken in context to Hebei/Shaanxi (i.e. Li Luoneng thereafter) is not too inaccurate as recent understanding is that the mother of the method within is actually Bafan anyways. Thus the Santi, the mods to the elements etc. In fact it is the Jixing Siba which was XYLH/Dai influenced etc… the mix has conceptually changed the origin. The Yingzhao (Eagle Claw) reference is again basically Ba Fan Shou (basic part of Fanzi or Bafanmen) is the basis and the 36 locks are the other, then extended over and created by the founders…

Note that this does not suggest whether the legends are accurate or not but rather to be careful in dismissing too quickly.

Kind Regards
SM

Taiping Wuguan: http://www.satirio.com/ma/home.html