Greetings..
Equally so, EF.. but, i agreed with your premise of honesty.. and, i thought it prudent to state my position.. as much for my own sake as anyone else’s.. <respectful bows>
Be well..
thanks a lot Buddy and Bob - info much appreciated
Bob - regarding group Standing Post: I find it lacks any benefit for anyone bar beginners due to the varied times that people need to work to to gain benefit. I do a short 5 minute session at the start of a lesson followed by about 10 minutes of silk-reeling exercises (some Chen, some CMC that I picked up).
I find I have taken the same approach as you with students - I explain why it is important to maintain the practice. Usually I tell them about my own experiences - I stopped standing post for a long period, believing that the form was sufficient in itself to build root and strength. Over time my form deteriorated to the point that I became very frustrated - I went and spoke to my instructor who said he’d been waiting for me to come to him. He told me I wasn’t going to like it but the only way to improve and have something worthwhile was to work on my ZhangZhong. As soon as I started training that again, my form was fine.
I tried working a much higher posture today and did about 25 minutes (4 minutes per posture) - it is noticeably different to what I have been doing. I get the shaking but without any discomfort, and I also find myself able to work on my breathing more and feel more of what is going on. With the standing post my instructor gets me to do, it is a battle of endurance. Upon consideration i think that’s because I have been going too deeply without guidance (I havent trained zhangzhong in front of him in years) - I guess he works that deeply because he has built up to it over many years. I’ll have a chat with him next time I’m in for a lesson.
I’m going to run with the higher posture (I’m going to stick with 50/50 for now) for a few months and see how it goes.
standing
my 2 pence:
standing has helped me to connnect my body, thus putting me on the path to MUCH better rooting than before i started standing. it has also helped me calm the mind, so i don’t forget my forms when i have been lazy to practice. it has helped my push hands immensely–my listening/sticking/following is WAY better these days. i think that with daily practice, one would eventually develop a high degree of sensitivity to touch and of touch. on a general note, i’ve done the sporadic standing bit, and the dedicated standing bit, and i have to say that in addition to the benefit to my taijiquan, i notice that my entire life is more enhanced with standing–less stress, more energy, better mood overall. my routine for the past 4-4 1/2 years has been 25-40 min/day, unless i’m REALLY tired or i’m sick.
my strong opinion is that one gets more benefit with regular practice: 10 min/day is preferable to 60 min once per week…
i was taught not to change posture during the session, although i have heard of that approach. as far as depth of stance, i like to start high in my stance–i tend to sink as the session progresses.
keep at it–you’ll see results with time. remember that the internal work takes years!
I was wondering how the other styles of taijiquan view standing. In chen style it seems to be a cornerstone of the training and I find it to be most useful.
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body. I’ve been practicing wuji steady for the last year and a half, up to 30 minutes a day and I still find it challenging, always feeling little tensions in my lower back and hips but it has helped.
Remember that standing practice at it’s core is isometrics. Properly done you should notice your strength and power increase over time. IMO, focus on this and don’t get all wrapped up in the Qi cultivation thing.
I agree with Bob & Buddy in that 40 min. is max. When I trained in Yi Quan we would hold 8 postures a max of 5 min each. My teacher said that any longer was counter productive. One of the best write ups on standing practice I have seen is in the book Xing Yi Nei Gong - Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development edited & compiled by Dan Miller & Tim Cartmell. Tim does a chapter on standing practice which is really straight forward & easy to understand.
changing the postures evolves naturally I think. You get tired of the first posture but still have energy left.
Originally posted by cam
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body.
There is more to Zhang Zhuan than “don’t just stand there, do nothing!”, although most people continue practicing Zhang Zhuan for years and years at this level without progressing.
Of course, while using ZZ to improve ones rooting, posture, isometric strength, relaxation etc is useful and important, the more important goal is to learn to move one’s energy both inside and outside the body. However, very very few people were taught the method, so this “doing nothing” method became the norm as most people are doing it this way although it is not entirely correct.
Take the Xinyi San Ti stance for example, when practiced properly, not only does one developes the ability to withstand a strong push, but one would also develope the skills to “fire” someone out with incredible power without much effort.
Even the Wing Chun Tan Sau stance is immensely powerful, yet hardly anyone knows how to practice it properly, and turn it into a pure isometric conditioning exercise. Many people practices this great art for years without even knowing the energetics behind this most fundamental exercise.
The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.
Cheers,
John
Yikes! I really have to learn how to spell.
Now as I have already stated, I am a raw beginner, my skill level is just slightly past zero. In fact over the last year my ability to get formal training has been next to impossible due to work retraints though I have been practicing what I have learned daily. I can’t wait for my teacher to tell me how badly I’ve messed things up:(
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.
I have seen demonstrations of Wu style, Eddie Wu’s senior students, a high level Yang stylist and various Chen stylists and they were all equally impressive. I have also seen things that, well lets just say I keep a tight grip on my wallet
Originally posted by imperialtaichi
[B]Even the Wing Chun Tan Sau stance is immensely powerful, yet hardly anyone knows how to practice it properly, and turn it into a pure isometric conditioning exercise. Many people practices this great art for years without even knowing the energetics behind this most fundamental exercise.
The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.
Cheers,
John [/B]
Haha great point about the Wing Chun tan sao!
On the lucky few in ZZ - would you care to name some of the lucky few?
Originally posted by cam
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.
Hey, there is NO SECRET. There are people who are willing to teach you the real thing for next to nothing. The problems is, those people who really know their art are usually not good businessmen so they may not have big famous schools, so you may have to really dig around China to find them.
And because they go against the flow of popular methods, people won’t even bother to learn from them. For example, the Tian Style Bagua is a very very powerful style of Bagua; but reject by popular public because it is different from the main stream. There is a good teacher in Sydney that teaches it for AUD$15 per 2hr lessons but he has only a small student numbers because he is not a good businessman, and he is doing it for love not fame and fortune.
If someone, one day, decided to teach you something that goes against what you have learned, are you going to accepted it with an open mind, or dismiss it as incorrect?
MacDonalds is the most popular burger restuarant in the world; but do they make the best burgers?
Cheers,
John
Originally posted by crimsonking
On the lucky few in ZZ - would you care to name some of the lucky few?
I don’t want to sound biased, so I will only give examples outside the Yang Jian Hou tradition; and only the ones still living, less famous but **** powerful none the less:
Pan Yue (Xinyi) in Taiwan
Tian Ke Yan (Yin Yang Bagua Zhang) in Beijing
Tsui Seuong Tien (Wing Chun) in Hong Kong
I had personally met, and get “fired off” by TKY and TST, yet to meet PY, although a friend of mine had met him and was most impressed by PY.
If you have a chance, meet them, get hit/bounced by them and experience for yourself.
Cheers,
John
How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai… would any of these individuals make your list?
Thanks, agreed on TST.
“The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.”
Oh brother.
.
What did you expect? Did you look at his site?
Interesting view on the total amount of time to practice the ZZ. Just to clarify, is the general concensus 40 min. total on each leg or 20 min. each leg for a total of 40 min.?
What about diminshing returns? Has anyone experienced adverse or negative results? If so, what were they?
Any other practices before or after ZZ that people do?
“The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.”
John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?
Best wishes!
Originally posted by cam
How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai… would any of these individuals make your list?
Yes, of course, these people are most powerful and I respect their abilities. I did not include them in the previous post because they are famous enough and everybody knows them already. I just wanted to point out a few powerfulful ones and less famous.
Cheers,
John
Originally posted by Anjentao
John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?
Hello Anjentao,
If you practice well with the right methods, you WILL improve in skills and power very very quickly. In matter of months, not years. But of course, even with inefficient methods, you will still improve, but slowly.
My quest to seek knowledge had taken me to see famous and popular school who had basically given me nothing; had spent thousands of dollars on teachers who taught me “secret techniques” who were basically just trying to cheat me money. Had spent years of practice and hard work with only minimal improvement.
You see, there are teachers who would cheat you money by charging you a lot of money to teach you useless techniques; and there are ones who knows powerful techniques but would never teach you, and just tell you to “practice hard” and somehow you will get it miraculusely after 5 or 10 years. By then, when you realise you are not getting it, he had already made 5 years of money out of you and again you walk out with nothing.
I was lucky in the end to see some real powerful masters in China who shared many useful methods with me. I just do not want others to waste their time and money like I did many years ago and start improving their skill level quickly with proper methods.
So often, you offer free advice to people to help them overcome their inefficiencies, yet because your method is “different” from main stream you ended up with eggs on your face.
My advice is, if your teacher is genuine and nice and putting his/her heart into helping you and want to share everything he/she knows with you, stick with him/her! He/she is the type who you can trust and will always be there for you! But if your teacher does not care how you practice, does not constantly guide and correct you, does not want to answer your questions and just tell you to “practice”, or charge you an arm and a leg for some secret techniques, then you know there is something wrong.
Cheers,
John
Originally posted by crimsonking
Thanks, agreed on TST.
Hello Crimsonking,
Yes, first time I met TST was almost 20yrs ago. He told me the Key to the Tan Sau Stance was to imagine the structure as a cone, and he kept on repeating “Gone Chut Hui” which means “rush it out”. Of course, at that time, I could not understand how on one hand you are not moving, and yet you have to rush it out, and to rush “what” out. So, all those people who practice the stance for hours without “rushing it out” are not developing their power as efficiently.
It was only over the past 7-8yrs that I could understand what he meant. Luckily, I did not just dismiss it and forgot it.
Cheers,
John