Hi John
Yes, when you talk about spending lots of money and more importantly time on the “secrets”, only to later find out it was rubbish, it tends to make one sceptical. At least that’s how I feel about it, it actually takes you further from your goal, as I had to spend time unlearning the nonsense that was drilled into me. Luckily for me I have had the opportunity to get on the right track, with the help of a high level Taijiquan sifu.
The Real Secret
Secrets= one of two things…
1- Teacher will milk you out of mucho $$, and most likely teach sh!t.
2- Teacher does not know something, is too proud too admit it, and too lame to find out and help their student.
The secret is training hard. Period. If you are told something else (I do not care how high level your teacher is) run like the wind, because you will waste your money, but worse yet time! I can earn money back. When time is lost…it is lost forever!
I agree with the addage (as does my teacher Tim Cartmell) with a max. of 20 min. Whether that is standing in San (10 minutes each leg) Ti, or Yi Chuan.
I am not sure what to think about some of these people who stand for hours a day, practice no striking drills or other similar drills, and then say they can fight better than anyone! I do not dispute their claims of power, but how do you become a better fighter without hitting something/one??? By just standing??? :rolleyes:
I also agree that one should not “just stand there doing nothing.” Tim explains it like this… imagine a crazy nut job, standing just out of reach with a giant axe waiting to cut off your head. As soon as he moves you attack! That is the type of Yi (intent) one should have when standing. Otherwise you are just…standing.
My two cents…
Cheers
Jake 
I have read several books (like Sun Lu Tang’s Study of Form Mind-Boxing/Jerry Alan Johnson’s Essence of Internal Martial Arts/B.K. Frantzis’ Power of Internal Martial Arts) that all elude to standing practice being up to an hour (San Ti Shi posture).
I got the impression that meant total, so I started to gradually build up my time to 20min/side in a San Ti posture (with a slight difference in the placement of the posterior arm/palm). My entire stance keeping takes an 1hr and 15 min with stretching before and centering after. I feel that this amount of time is beneficial and have not experienced any negative effects.
On Tim’s Discussion board (www.shenwu.com) you can do a search for “Standing Practice” and find a discussion on this topic where Tim writes:
"Since walking the circle while holding postures is referred to as “Xing Zhuang” (moving post) and stance keeping is “Zhan Zhuang” (standing post) it’s apparent that the Chinese view the two practices as of the same training methodology. Personally, I think there is benefit to practicing both methods. In most schools of Ba Gua Zhang, although emphasis is placed on the Xing Zhuang, there is also at least one or two stationary postures that are practiced. In the Gao style, practitioners often stand in the “Guard” posture, “Xian Tian Zhuang” or Pre-Heaven Posture (the basic circle walking position) as well as a variation of the San Ti Posture of Xing Yi Quan, called “Hou Tian Zhang” or the Post-Heaven Posture. I think that spending some time on stationary postures is very beneficial no matter which style is practiced.
Xing Zhuang cultivates the ability to hold the upper body in a unit (correct alignment) and to focus the intent through a particular posture while in constant motion around an opponent.
Zhan Zhuang cultivates the same type of power while emphasizing stability. So basically the two variations of post training emphasize stability and focus of power and intent while staionary and while in motion."
Also:
“As beneficial as stance keeping is, there is a limit. My Yi Quan teacher said that 40 minutes of standing was very good, an hour was the maximum for beneficial returns, and that if you had time to stand longer than that, you need to go out and get a job.”
He also clarifies that is should be 40Min. total.
Has anyone tried different sets of standing? If so, have you felt a benefit from it? I am curious because I have recently started to do some Yi Chuan (25 min) in the afternoon and meditation (15 min) at night in addition to San Ti (1:15) in the morning. Just curious…
Happy training!
Anjentao,
Are you studying Yi Chuan with Tim? This is where I received my standing/Yi Chuan training. We did 8 different positions for 5 min each standing. Then other moving exercises called “testing power” [shir li?] and mud stepping [mocu bu?]. Tim has some videos of his teacher, Gao, demonstrating some things informally. Pretty cool stuff.
Surf Taut,
No, but I wish I was studying Yi Chuan with Tim!
Actually I have very little Yi Chuan training so far. I have gotten that information in bits and peices and combined it with the details/principles I have gotten for standing practice.
There’s a Jerry Alan Johnson book (listed above) that also details eight main postures with a ready posture at the beginning and end. I imagine it’s very similar to what you practice.
I’m sure over time I will learn more of the Yi Chuan.
Practice. Patience. Persistance!
Happy training!
How do you know about Gao style?
How do you know about Gao style?
Buddy, I’m assuming that is directed at my reference to Gao above. Tim Cartmell’s YiChuan teacher is named Gao Liu De. Tim taught a class in YiChuan for a brief period of time. Not to be confused with Gao Yi Sheng style BaGua which I learned from him also.
I have been reading a lot about Yi Chuan/Dadengchaun on various web sites. I have also seen quite a few books available on the subject. Does anyone have any suggestions as far as well written books go?
Tim Cartmells Xing Yi Nei Gong book is the best reference on standing. I have all of the ones in English, and Tim makes it very simple and has a down to earth style (just like his teachings).
Cheers
Jake
Some YiQuan resources
Websites
www.yiquan.com
www.yiquan.com.pl
http://www.tapmax.com/yq/index.html
www.i-chuan.net Best articles on practice on the internet
Forums
http://www.yiquan.com.pl/support/
http://www.tapmax.com/yq/forum/index.php
www.tomabey.com
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dachengdao/
My own contribution:
http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/martarts/yiquan01.html
I’ve been standing regularly for a little over 4 years now. I find that when I train regularly, my mental state is equal to whatever challeges arise. I’ve also found that my reaction time is better. I can’t really say that I’m faster, or there is a sensation that everything has slowed down, but I just seem to have more time.
What has worked well for me is to work on one posture for a week or so. Standing anywere from 30 minutes (or whatever I can get in, if I’m busy or travelling), to over 70 minutes (at which point my feet tend to fall asleep and I fall down). One combat posture, and one shi li exercise. The next week go on to something else.
The first goal in standing is to relax. After becoming relaxed, it’s important to work with visualizations. Visualization may not be the best word. I know of people who try to “see” the balloon, tree, springs, or whatever. It is more like “feel as though you are holding a balloon.” The difference is subtle, but important.
Best Regards,
Rick
EXACTLY! i agree 100%.
Just a point of clarification, Zhanzhuang practice alone does not equate to Yiquan practice. Alot of people are familiar with Han XingYuen’s 8 postures, but they represent a small percentage of the yiquan postures out there, and in that an even smaller percentage of the total Yiquan practice. They’re great postures, don’t get me wrong, and a very important practice that I would urge any martial artist to investigate, but by themselves, they aren’t Yiquan.
To further expand on Elliot’s post - Zhan Zhuang + <insert martial art> isn’t YiQuan either. YiQuan consists of a complete body of exercises, one of which is ZZ.
.
ZZ practice is a foundational study.
There isn’t an Internal art that does not have a standing
or static postural method.
Can we move on now?
To be honest when practicing Yiquan I’m not actually looking for a “style.” I realize that there may be dozens of standing postures that are practiced within the community of Yiquan but I do not believe they are all necessary to practice Yiquan. I always felt it was about concepts.
Its quite true that the specific postures don’t necessarily constitute Yiquan practice; what does are the seven parts; zhanzhuang, shi li, fa li, mocabu, shi sheng, tuishou and sanshou. What does is things like various mojin and structure testing. I practice Beng Chuan, is that now my XingYi practice? I sometimes practice Chicken Steps, am I practicing Ziranmen? No, I’m practicing a part of Ziranmen. I’m practicing a piece of Xingyi (a piece by way of Taikiken, so there is some symmetry there). I’m not saying don’t stand, very much the opposite, stand, please; and I’m definately not saying don’t cross-pollinate your practice, just be aware that its a tiny piece that you’re practicing.
This kinda brings me more to the real point of mentioning this: just standing isn’t Yiquan. Why? well there is a Wang XiangZhai quote I like that makes it fairly clear. “In Yiquan, zhanzhuang is most basic, but shi li is most important”. You really can’t do Yiquan zhanzhuang without doing shi li. You will lack the basic internal understanding of developing hunyuanli and mojin feelings through zhanzhuang practice without it. Its critical.
Honestly depending on what complete means to someone I can safely say that I do not practice any style completly. In my Yiquan practice I only practice a few postures but the important concepts of expressing outward in a minumum of six directions and using “opposite force” in every posture and stretching the frame as well as other concepts are what is important for me ( this is also not including all the mental imagery that is utilized.) My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.
I’ve said my piece. Whatever works for you.
My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.
Shi li = seeking force/strength. The moving part of Yiquan. Starts with arm movements that lead to full body movements and are later combined with mocabu to eventually form part of jianwu. Its where you find the opposing forces and directional forces that lead to hunyuanli, or ‘six-directional force’ (I still think ‘omni-directional force’ migh be a better translation though).
Thank you for that translation. And your right its all about what works for you.
Rick,
Thanks for the suggestions on websites/boards. I knew of a few of them from www.chinafrominside.com and have started digging into some of the others.
Elliot,
Thanks for your input as well.
Both of you make valid comments and clear points on the practice.
I soak up as much info as I can and it either validates something I am doing (like the archive on Rick’s site) or it adds a peice that I might think about or try in my own practice.
I have been doing stance keeping for about three and a half years, which for me, has been long enough to realize the benefits and know that the continuous training will only improve these benefits.
I think it’s clear that only Yi Quan is Yi Quan, much in the way that only Xing Yi is Xing Yi, etc. and as far as “cross-pollination” I agree with Elliot in that these are small peices of something that in itself is a complete system.
I practice Ba Gua and within the training we are taught standing practice.
IMO the standing practice that I have maintained has made a significant difference in my ability to practice everything else. I am sold on it! Obviously, I can only practice what I have been taught and try to perfect it.
Thanks again for the links and info…
Practice, Patience, Persistance