Ugh…please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same. Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan. If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.
Originally posted by looking_up
Ugh…please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same.
I didn’t say they were the same, just similar… eerily similar IMO. I’ll keep discussing these similarities for awhile since I find them interesting.
Originally posted by looking_up
Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan.
I’m open to hearing your opinion. I started another thread to discuss similarities and differences between the arts so as not to divert the topic away from my initial inquiry. Anything you’d like to add to back up your opinion should go there. I’m really interested to hear what you have to say!
Originally posted by looking_up
If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.
Really the whole reason I started this thread was to see how others were doing with standing practice, and to get some opinions on it’s applicability to actual combat. I HAVE stood for lengthy periods and trained with some very good teachers. It’s a shame but I didn’t see the value in it because it was so difficult and time consuming and frankly it didn’t seem to be providing me with any benifits. I’m still open to the possibility that it has value on the other hand, and am eager to find out what long term practitioners of the method have to say.
Now as someone else pointed out, I suppose I could have been doing EVERYTHING wrong, but if I followed your advice it wouldn’t matter. Right or wrong, I’d “know” the value of standing practice, and because my experience indicates it, I’d “know” that standing is a collosal waste of time.
Of course that’s absurd. It may not have worked for me, but there’re lots of possibilities as to why. If a method has worked for others, then those people should be able to explain it.
Jack,
As I have mentioned, my experience is that standing builds power. As I also said, I could show you this power quite readily. Also a few of my students, and certainly all my seniors. But you live far away so that’s impractical. You already have a number of pointers about standing practice, so my suggestion is that you ask (here and other boards) where you might someone in your area that can show you in person.
Thanks Buddy. I’m planning on swinging down to San Fransisco pretty soon for a George Xu seminar. I’ll ask Master Xu what he thinks. Actually, I already know what he’ll say, “You just keep standing!”, but I’ll ask him to check my form anyway.
I also highly recommend my kung fu brother Bernie Langan just across the bay in Albany CA (just north of Berkeley). He teaches Gao style baguazhang and Pentjak Silat Sera.
Let’s start with this: why was standing so difficult?
Greetings..
Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person’s level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student’s dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..
From a personal perspective it is a super inventory of current physical, mental and spiritual status.. one can sense Qi trouble spots, can correct almost imperceptable alignment inconsistencies, can calm scattered thinking, and raise the spirit.. all this while cultivating Qi.. not to mention regulating breath.. in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement..
Much wisdom has been posted regarding the necessity for solid grounding, and standing meditations are excellent disciplines for sensing and developing one’s connection with the earth.. internal arts are foundationally dependent upon grounding (rooting) to attain any reasonable level of proficiency or power.. try standing in neck deep water where your grounding is compromised by buoyancy and water applies resistance to every move, remaining grounded during movement is quite difficult (but a good practice).. Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his “standing on bricks” routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting..
For me, standing meditations are as essential as the form itself.. it is the Wuji that supports Taiji..
Be well..
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person’s level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student’s dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..
I agree wholeheartidly with the above, Bob. On the other hand, Five minutes is a far cry from the hour + of practice that was a part of my early practice! Do you think that briefer standing sessions offer similar benifits to longer ones?
One thing that is becoming clear to me as this discussion continues is that people appear to have differing beliefs concerning what is meant by Zhang Zhuan. Witness the next comment.
Originally posted by looking_up
Let’s start with this: why was standing so difficult?
I’m tempted to give you the same answer you gave me (i.e. try it and see), but all teasing aside, daily standing for an hour a day can at times be inconvienent, tedious, painful, frustrating, and it takes time from work/play/school/family (did I mention PAINFUL?).
Lets get past this, anyone who has engaged a daily standing practice for at least an hour a day already knows it can be VERY uncomfortable.
Greetings..
Samurai Jack: Due to time constraints at the school i only ask for 5 min. to show them the “potential”, and i counsel them to make standing meditation a part of their daily training.. in my personal practice it ranges from 20 to 40 minutes.. yes, it can be painful.. that is your body signaling areas of concern: blockages; or inconsistencies in alignment, thought or spirit; or poor technique..
I think 20 minutes is minimum to receive real benefits or to make real progress.. i think 40 minutes is maximum due to micro-tears in muscles that become minutely atrophyed, and betond 40 minutes you enter into a meditative state that is somewhat counterproductive to Qi cultivation and manipulation.. i have stood for times in excess of an hour, but find it draining and remarkably difficult to focus on my intent and difficult to exit the meditation without “post-partum” blues.. hence my favor with 20-40 minutes..
One of the miracles of standing meditation is the unfolding awareness of the symphony of processes within the human body.. after a while one can feel/sense many previously unperceived events in the body.. ie: organ functions, blood flow, food processing, etc… then, at some point hopefully, we sense the subtle hum of pure energy (bio-electrical energy/Qi)..
Be well..
First I will shock the world by agreeing with Bob…at least for the most part.
Personally I think 20-30 minutes is optimal. Longer and you end up fighting yourself for diminishing returns.
"Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person’s level of dedication and discipline.. "
Zhang Zhuan is a generic term and does not refer to a specific posture. I think you mean, by the term Wuji, a parallel stance with or without the arms in an embracing posture. WHile I agree this is a good beginning stance and one perfectly reasonable one for health improvement, a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great.
“in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement..”
Do you mean as described in Jou’s book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior.
“Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his “standing on bricks” routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting..”
While I don’t intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I’ve seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa.
When I was teaching a lot of standing even raw beginners would stand for ten minutes, no less. That will evoke a strong response. Re: pain, it’s temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you’re doing it wrong. You’re simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind. There are distinct phases one goes through in learning standing and almost everyone I have taught has very similar symptoms. If you learn how to progressively relax, the pain will disappear.
Originally posted by Buddy
Re: pain, it’s temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you’re doing it wrong. You’re simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind.
I suspected as much. Unfortunately it has been extremly difficult to find a teacher skilled enough to point me in the right direction. So much dilution, so many willing to claim mastery after learning a form…
I’d still be doing IMA if top quality teachers were available in my area. As it turned, I went with the only truly good teacher I could find, and he happens to be an Aikidoka.
FWIW
Mike Sigman was also led to internal arts through his experience with akido.
While Mike is more than capable of expressing his own views, my understanding is that aikido, as he was exposed to it (Mike has a habit of pursuing things in depth) wasn’t enough.
Mike is a strong advocate for chen taiji, and has spent close to a decade or more exploring what neijia arts are about and trying to communicate that.
While there may be surface similarities between aikido and neijia arts the degree to which the dantien is developed in chen taiji as the center of all movement is far more intricate than the admonishment to “work from the center” that so many arts advocate, both internal and external.
Mike’s view, as I understand it (and I agree) is that many arts have similar reminders about whole body power and moving from the center, but that the question that separates the chinese internals is how you achieve those goals.
The specific qigong and neigong exercises associated with the chinese internals develop a sense of connectivity that is one of the foundations, the use of the dantien is another, and the specific methods of the big three (xing I, taiji, and ba gua) are what give the special flavor, or characteristics of the power generation of each.
An intellectual understanding will only go so far, it is the actual practice that will give you the understanding.
As an aside, after years of training in a variety of disciplines, my advice is to ignore the external similarities of movement. There are only so many ways the human body can move as discernible by the eye (even the trained eye) and fighting arts in general share similar external movements.
What separates the diffferent arts for the most part, is how they develop power, and the startegies they apply in fighting. While there may be some overlap, there are specific practices, many of which are rejected by some as having nothing to do with fighting, that will develop the power that is the hallmark of internalists. It has to be felt, but once you have the differnce becomes amazingly clear.
Peace
Jack,
I recommend BK Frantzis’ book “Opening the Energy Gates of the Body” as an excellant intro to neigong. I learned from him for many years and found this method effective. If you try and have questions, I would be happy to address them here or by email. I prefer here so others may benefit but it’s up to you. BTW good to see the “Lohan Lawyer” back in the fray.
Consider yourself lucky to receive advice from Walter and Buddy. I’m at a point where I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice. Buddy continues to share and it is generous of him to do so.
I’ll bow out because our discussion is going nowhere and you’ll get better advice from the veterans. The only things I’ll suggest are to find the right teacher and to always keep relaxation in mind when standing.
Good luck.
Greetings..
a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great.
Absolutely, and the Qi cultivation is noticably increased..
Do you mean as described in Jou’s book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior.
The Taiji diagram exercises are similar to Jou Tsung Hua’s, but i intend it just to lightly activate the Qi.. i favor Chen style Chan si jin in lower stances for serious internal development..
While I don’t intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I’ve seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa
I have trained and pushed with Dr. Yang and found his internal knowledge and prowess to be greatly superior to his external expressions of forms.. (i do not favor his forms).. he is similar to WCC Chen (whom i’ve pushed with as well) in effectiveness, but they approach internal sparring a little differently.. Dr. Yang’s Qinna is quite developed and effective.. the brick suggestion is not intended to be a main training device, just a method of exploring “connections”..
One day a week, outside regularly scheduled classes, we have an informal gathering to work on specific areas of interest (Qinna, weapons, meditation, pushing, etc) or concern.. this may be 2-4 hours.. where i often suggest, a good 30 minute standing meditation, but.. i do not force that regimen, i only counsel the student regarding the limitations a lack of standing meditation imposes on their progress.. Perhaps someone can assist me, here.. it seems that group standing meditation for lengthy periods don’t work well in my experience.. i sense that conflicting energies and conflicting levels of expertise distract the students at some level i cannot manage.. perhaps the proximity to others working at differing issues adds an overall element of chaos to the experience.. i don’t know, just fishing and going on intuition..
Thanks, Buddy.. (humble bows)..
Be well..
Hi there - just wanted your take on what I do at the moment, and how it might be improved.
I train 6 postures, but all in 50/50 - i dont move my feet once I’ve started, just change the height and facing of my hands. I tend to work to breaths rather than minutes - 13 breaths per posture works out at about 12-15 minutes standing time. I have been taking the postures deeper over time, rather than doing them for longer.
So, my questions:
- is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?
- if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)
- I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?
- is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?
- are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?
Ok I’ll give it a shot. Remember I’m a bagua guy not a taiji guy but in my opinion these styles along with xingyi share a basic body method.
"So, my questions:
- is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?"
Yes. Standing is more than just leg strengthening. It is excellant for that but reread Bobs post about all the other things it develops. My expereince is that the heavy rooting effect it produces is just the beginning stage. Formerly my neijin was heavy as I ‘bounced’ my power off my root. Now it all mostly comes from the yao/kua (waist, lumbar, inguinal area) and the power is much more crisp and penetrating.
- if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)
Because I also practice xingyi (it’s a part of Yizong bagua) I favor Santi. This is a back weighted posture with the lead hand at at about mouth height palm forward arm bent at about 120 degree angle with the elbow rotated downward pointing to the ground (luoxuanjin). The rear hand is in approximately the same posture in front of the navel.
- I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?
Sure, or just keep relaxing/expanding. This is an ongong process (yin ceasingly changing to yang).
- is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?
Why not?
- are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?
Different animals. Silk reeling is all about how to use whole body power centered on the hips amd waist.
Buddy
Lets be honest here
“I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice.”
Actually, I’ve yet to find any martial artist – internal of otherwise – who won’t shut up if you play a little stupid and interested.
Truth be told, you won’t learn what you want from being here. Even if someone here has proven they know what they are doing, AND have made it work for them in both health AND* combat, how are you to learn it over the net or through a book?
Find yourself a good teacher. You’ll know when you do. Just be honest with yourself.
Greetings..
Yes, let’s be honest.. i have no intention of “teaching” here.. i share insights in hopes of learning how others gained their insights.. and, maybe one or two of my insights may be helpful in pointing others toward a useful experience.. Cripe, it’s a passionate addiction, i enjoy dialoguing with others on this subject.. i enjoy even the contentious exchanges, it helps me manage emotions and hone my conflict management skills.. this forum is no substitute for a teacher, but it may help someone discern a knowledgable teacher from a BS artist..
The forum should be a happy place where we can share and gain insights, get some training tips and discuss theories, etc.. not the playground of poorly intended egos and trolls.. but, it is what it is and it beats many other similar venues..
Be well..
Taichi Bob, my post was not directed at your or anyone in particular – I enjoy your posts.
I think it was directed at us as a collective, to remind us that it is a never ending practice. I would venture very few of us are “experts” or have achieved a level we are comfortable with. At least I haven’t.